VIP - Ottoman Empire

[Kurdistani]

Your list of events seems interesting and i'm sure they would add a certain flavour. However, the option three you suggested in Hamidiye Regiments event does not seem realistic to me at all, since by 1892 Abdulhamid II, with his widespread network of agents and spies was well aware of the Armenian seperatists intentions and arming them via Ottoman money would simply be considered suicide.[/QUOTE]

Prephas, a third option could be to allow European commission's to implement reforms towards religious equality.

By the way is anyone working on more events for Iran? (I'm still working out how to use this newfangled internet forums business....)

 

[Generalisimo]

They have to be fixed from the VIP_Egypt event file.

What also needs to be added there is "Egypt becomes Ottoman satellite" line.

if i am not mistaken that is solved in VIP v0.2B...

 

[unmerged(15665)]

A few suggestions for the OE. First i'd change Berbers, Tauregs, and Arabs, to irregular divisions. Second i'd empty the mobilization pool. Then on the Prussian advisors event i'd add five divisions to the mob pool (when conscription started), instead of the 7 they now get, and give the Turks "Military staff system" for the A choice to reflect Prussian advisors. I also made the following event for the OE and Turks:

#The Pains of Industrialization#
event = {
id = 279011
random = no
country = TUR

name = "The Pains of Industrialization"
desc = "Large backwards countries like Russia and the Ottomans had difficulties efficiently levying taxes from their populations and creating the necessary infrastructure to industrialize."
style = 0

date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1836 }

action_a = {
name = "Oh the pain!"
command = { type = tax_eff value = -15 }
command = { type = tariff_eff value = -15 }
command = { type = factory_cost_mod value = 50 }
}
}

For Russia the tax and tariff maluses should be -10 each. And Arabic culture really should go as it allows the Turks to put up factories not only in the entire Middle east, but also all of North Africa, which never happened. With these changes the OE is much more challenging to play.

 

[nomoi]

I like that but arabic must stay as a national culture. Also doing so may kill the playability for OE and not just make it challanging. It should be tested first IMO.

And please make these changes:
Trabzon's resource : tea
adana's : cotton
bursa's : silk

 

[McNaughton]

I like that but arabic must stay as a national culture. Also doing so may kill the playability for OE and not just make it challanging. It should be tested first IMO.

And please make these changes:
Trabzon's resource : tea
adana's : cotton
bursa's : silk

I don't know why it must stay as a national culture, what are the reasons for it?

I don't think it will kill the Ottoman Empire's playability, as take a look at Austria. It has only South German as a national culture in 1836, which is only 20% of their population. The Ottoman Empire has over 60% of their population as their national culture, with arabic being 18% of it.

What are the ramifications of this? The Ottoman Empire has about thee times the effective workforce as Austria in 1836. Their industries and RGO's will be substantially more effective, resulting in a better budget based upon resources (Austria has better resources, but the Ottoman Empire is more efficient).

In VIP 1836, Austria and the Ottoman Empire have almost exactly the same income (at 49.22% taxation for all pops Austria earns about 133 pounds a day, while the Ottomans earn about 137 pounds a day in January 1836). Austria has more starting industry, as well as more valuable resources (a lot of iron and coal), while the Ottoman Empire has a large population who have the national culture, so even though they have lower industry and poorer resources, they are able to attain the same income as Austria. The problem with this is that Austria is 'fairly' industrialized, while the Ottomans are not, BUT income is the same! The Ottomans can industrialize fairly easily, as they are earning a lot of money, while Austria has almost maxed out its population of national workers in industry already. When the Ottomans do industrialize, their industry can be fed with a large population of national workers as over 60% of their population is highly effective, while Austria's is just 20%, meaning that whatever industries they make will be more efficient, and produce more, than Austria, meaning that they will earn even more money.

Removing Arabic culture will lower the % of nationals in the Ottoman empire to over 45%, still double that of Austria. Even if you eliminate all but Turkish as the national culture of the Ottoman Empire, this still leaves them with 39% of their pop being national culture (or 11 million people), while Austria still has 20% (or 6 million people). Losing Arabic will not cripple the Ottoman Economy, as Austria has even fewer from their national culture and survives, but probably put it into the proper context. Austria is supposed to be stonger than the Ottoman Empire, yet they are put on par at the beginning, and the Ottomans have a greater chance at retaining their Empire because their economy will be substantially stronger by the middle of the 19th Century.

The only problem that I could see would be an early increase in militancy from the Arabs because they are no longer full citizens. This could be remedied by adding events covering historic grants to the Arabs which would decrease their militancy until the proper time for them to rise up.

 

[nomoi]

I didnt understand why you make comparisons with austria but if you play the game to the end austria always (at least %80) finish the game in top6 and never seen austria-hungary in any of my games while ottomans hardly is a great power which is historical and right. Probably this is not this topic's discussion but this is my view.

And I believe arabic must be a state culture. Ottomans ruled the middle-east for more than 300 years in 1836 and there were so many arabic officials that were also have some rank and position in the empire. It is just so clear and simple. It is nothing to do with the austrians and austrians always consider themselves as germans which is definitely not the case for ottoman empire. If you make a comparison between austrian-hungarian, austrian-croatian, austrian-slovak, austrian-czech and ottman(turk)-arabic you should see the reason. I am not saying serbian culture should be the state culture for OE. I am talking about the facts. I am not trying to make Ottoman Empire a great power in the time being via events or any other kind of things. Those are facts.

 

[McNaughton]

Well, using Austria as a comparison, I stated that removing Arabic would NOT be disasterous for Turkey, or make them unplayable, as you said may happen. That was my sole reason for the comparison, that they COULD function without Arabic culture (as Austria functions without culture beyond German). Wether or not this would be historic, is another debate.

Removing Arabic as an Ottoman national culture MAY be more for gameplay than historic truth.

 

[unmerged(15665)]

Nomoi- All the changes I suggested iv'e been playing with for months, some before VIP came out, so they are tested and OE performs fine. As far as Arabic, that arguement has been made before by Tunch Khan. And while you are both right, this is one instance where game considerations trump reality IMO. Yes the Arabs were well integrated into the OE but the ME and North Africa were never industrialized the way OE makes it if they have Arabic culture. This is not a big deal with the Albanian and Kurdish cultures because they don't have that many POPs, but their are massive numbers of Arab POPs, and the OE can statify all of them. Its like giving Britain, Chinese culture because they held Hong Kong without revolt. It just isn't good for game balance.

 

[unmerged(15665)]

McNaughton- Interesting statistics. Is Hungarian culture (after the Double Monarchy event) figured in, or is that based on just South German ?

 

[McNaughton]

That is based just on South German, Hungarian would add about another 16%, bringing up the total to about 36%, assuming that population growth is generally equal, and assuming that the Dual-Monarchy option is taken. This still leaves them below the Ottoman Empire in regards to total population working at 100% efficiency, even if the Ottoman Empire has only Turkish culture. Now, this is ment purely as comparison about how well a nation could function with a large minority included as a non-national culture.

I think that the positive gains from having Arabs as non-national culture outweigh the historic truth. Cultural inclusion is fairly abstract, as there is either cultural inclusion, or there isn't, no inbetween. The question I have is, did the Arabs (not just those with power, but the average Arab) see themselves as Ottoman Citizens, or Arabs who lived freely in the Ottoman Empire? Did the Arabs in recencly conquered lands feel the same way? The reason I am questioning this, is that after 300 years of Ottoman rule, when the Young Turks became harsh in 1908, it took only 8 years for a British supported revolt to have the region break away (I would assume that if they saw themselves as Ottoman Citizens, they would fight to gain rights, not fight to leave, or was the British promise of self-rule too enticing?).

Also, another problem with Turks having Arab culture, is if/when Egypt is conquered, you get another massive influx of citizens with national culture. I have seen the Ottoman AI annex Egypt by 1875, so I wonder what a human player could do! I guess this would be similar to giving Britain Chinese Culture, and they conquer China.

 

[Tunch Khan]

For those who are against Arabic as an OE culture, I think you should ask an Arab in 1850's for the answer to your questions.

Your mistake in assuming Arabs were not a part of OE culture comes from the misleading assumption of comparing OE to western nations like UK or Austria.

Middle East has long been ruled by the sword of religions not by nations. The effects of nationalism were only brought to the dunes of Arabia in the 20th century, and that being only limited to a few educated.

Ottoman Empire was a teocratic Empire and all muslims were considered brothers. That was the reason Albanians were close to Turks while Serbs, Greeks and Bulgars were not. That is the reason Kurds and Arabs were as equal as Turks until secular Young Turks came into power.

Even when the Arabs revolted against the OE in 1916, they were lead by their tribesleaders, sheihks of whom they are loyal to. There was no Arabic nationalism among the average Arab back then, as there is no proper nationalism in the Middle East today. They acted according to their feudal vassal-sovereign relations. As the Sultan in Istanbul was also the Caliph of all muslims around the world, not only the Arabs and Turks, but also the non-Ottoman muslim citizens of other nations were mostly loyal to Ottoman Empire. The only exception would be the Shiite Persians who did not recognize the Sunni Caliphate institution.

I understand your concerns about OE advantages in North Africa but they must be dealt with other measures, restrictions or events, not by taking cultures away, which would make game unrealistic.

 

[unmerged(15665)]

It has already been granted that the Arabs were an integral part of the OE, thats not the point. The point is, awarding Arab culture to the OE opens up ahistorical industrialization to an already overpowered OE. Its a gameplay issue. And what is served in game terms by adding the culture anyway ? Iv'e played without it since the game came out and iv'e never had any trouble with Arab revolts, and the ME was certainly not industrialized significantly, so whats the problem ? I think allowing the Ottomans to industrialize every Arab nation from Morrocco to Persia, including Egypt, makes the game a whole lot more unrealistic than the absence of the word Arabic next to their list of cultures.

 

[unmerged(15665)]

This event has never worked right. What would the correct state code be ?

#########################################################################
# The Bardo Treaty
#########################################################################
event = {
id = 28006
random = no
country = TUR

trigger = {
control = { province = 1303 data = FRA }
}

name = "EVT_28006_NAME"
desc = "EVT_28006_DESC"

date = { day = 12 month = may year = 1871 }
offset = 31
deathdate = { day = 30 month = december year = 1890 }

action_a = {
name = "ACTIONNAME28006A" # Sign the Treaty!
command = { type = prestige value = 25 }
command = { type = secedestate which = FRA value = 1303 }
}
}

 

[aprof]

This event has never worked right. What would the correct state code be ?

#########################################################################
# The Bardo Treaty
#########################################################################
event = {
id = 28006
random = no
country = TUR

trigger = {
control = { province = 1303 data = FRA }
}

name = "EVT_28006_NAME"
desc = "EVT_28006_DESC"

date = { day = 12 month = may year = 1871 }
offset = 31
deathdate = { day = 30 month = december year = 1890 }

action_a = {
name = "ACTIONNAME28006A" # Sign the Treaty!
command = { type = prestige value = 25 }
command = { type = secedestate which = FRA value = 1303 }
}
}

The country code for Turkey/Ottoman Empire is the 279xxx series.

 

[nomoi]

The event id looks strange and thinking the bardo treaty; trigger is definitely wrong. Triggers should be be "exists = TUN and event = 251068 # Berlin Congress" IMO.

Also I dont think that tunisia should be annexed by France with this event. Sattelite position is much more historic, I think.

Apart from these I am not sure why the event didnt work out. I dont know if it is this event's case but long descriptions' for events dont allow the game work and hangs it. Maybe you should check that.

 

[unmerged(15665)]

Just to clarify, the above wasn't my event, it is an original.

 

[Generalisimo]

Just to clarify, the above wasn't my event, it is an original.

i do not know which Vicky provinces should be really transferred in that event...

 

[OHgamer]

The event id looks strange and thinking the bardo treaty; trigger is definitely wrong. Triggers should be be "exists = TUN and event = 251068 # Berlin Congress" IMO.

Also I dont think that tunisia should be annexed by France with this event. Sattelite position is much more historic, I think.

Apart from these I am not sure why the event didnt work out. I dont know if it is this event's case but long descriptions' for events dont allow the game work and hangs it. Maybe you should check that.

I'd agree...Tunisia became a protectorate with the Bey remaining in power and his government supported/directed by French "advisors"..it was not directly administered by the French colonial office the way say Ivory Coast or the French Sudan (modern Mali) were.

Similarly would apply to Morocco.

 

[felixs]

I like that but arabic must stay as a national culture. Also doing so may kill the playability for OE and not just make it challanging. It should be tested first IMO.

And please make these changes:
Trabzon's resource : tea
adana's : cotton
bursa's : silk

Tea was first planted in Trabzon in 1920's...

 

[nomoi]

After your post I made a search.

City of Rize is located between the province of Artvin and Trabzon in Victoria. (mostly in Artvin) and I found that it was already had been planted tea in the 16th century. That's it I can say about it.

The region is called Blac-Sea Region in modern Turkey and trabzon, rize and artvin is in eastern blac-sea region. This place is famous with the tea it produces. I thought that it is more right to be tea than cattle and I still think so. That's also it I can say about this.