VIP - North America - Canada, Mexico, USA, + Revolters

[JRaup]

Dang you guys work fast. But I do have a few comments:

On Span-Am war:

1. If the CSA still exists by 1898, then they would have been mroe likely to go to war over Cuba, and forget about the Phillipines. The converse would hold true for the USA (if the CSA exists), especially if they have California. this could be very interesting if it should come to pass. So, you could have a 3-way war (USA-CSA-Spain), which would be rather interesting to see play out. Of course, such a happening could also provide a way for reconcilliation between the North and South, but we're well into specualtive areas here. Still, something to consider.

On the Boxer Rebellion:

1. I'd slow down on this, as the whole Chinese end of it is in need of a major over haul. There isn't enough of a build up to it, with all sorts of choices and possibilities to cover, before we get up to the intervention.

2. As for the reason the US joined the intervention, there wasn't just one. Part was to keep European claims from expanding too much (and hurting Us business interests), a fascination with the Orient in the US (much like Egypt and India for Britain), to keep a semi-stable situation in China (to keep immigration down), and because the Boxers attacked the US Embassy. There's some other minor stuff as well, but that covers the major factors.

3. Ever since Perry went to Japan, the US has maintained an interest in the Orient. Irregardless if the control the Phillipines or not, the US should be allowed to intervene along with the other nations. Also, the US was able to intervene at the level they did, because units had not been demobilized from teh Span-Am war, and were "mopping up" in the Phillipines.

4. The US maintained a military presence in China (China Station) from about 1868 (Korean expedition), to 1950. Riverine patrols from Shanghai and Tientsin (Tientsin was after 1901), and US ground presence in the Yangtze valley. These will also have to be coordinated with Chinese events (and probably British, French, German/Prussian as well).

5. The wrangling between the powers about who would lead the punitive expedition also will have to be scripted, including all the involved nations (Italy, A-H, Germany/Prussia, Britain, France, Japan, Russia, US), as well as Seymour's failed relief column to Peking. Events for the rescue of the legations should also be put in.

6. Some flavor events, like Herbert Hoover's aiding in the defense of the Foreign Quarter in Tientsin can also be tossed in.

7. Should Texas or CSA exist at the time, I don't really see either as being participants. Unless they have an alliance with a major european power, I don't see either as having an interest. Texas especially.

I have more sources on this to check, but that should cover things so far.

 

[Aragos]

Aprof--
How are we looking for events for the first version? Any still need to be coded?
Aragos

PS--I'm planning on doing a couple for 1868 Korean intervention for USA. Will be interesting to code even if we don't use them

 

[aprof]

Aprof--
How are we looking for events for the first version? Any still need to be coded?
Aragos

Was coming in to ask you about the CSA navy events. Are they tested and ready? EDIT: I see them in the acw events and various events files.

I just checked Mo's post-bellum CSA events and added to the big CSA file. I'll add your and Met's ACW events next. I know you've tested them already.

PS--I'm planning on doing a couple for 1868 Korean intervention for USA. Will be interesting to code even if we don't use them

You mean the seizure of the General Sherman and murder of its crew, with the following Admiral Rodgers expedition to Korea? Great! (I used that as inspiration for part of my narrative in my beta AAR.)

 

[Theodotus1]

Dang you guys work fast. But I do have a few comments:

On Span-Am war:

1. If the CSA still exists by 1898, then they would have been mroe likely to go to war over Cuba, and forget about the Phillipines. The converse would hold true for the USA (if the CSA exists), especially if they have California. this could be very interesting if it should come to pass. So, you could have a 3-way war (USA-CSA-Spain), which would be rather interesting to see play out. Of course, such a happening could also provide a way for reconcilliation between the North and South, but we're well into specualtive areas here. Still, something to consider.

On the Boxer Rebellion:

1. I'd slow down on this, as the whole Chinese end of it is in need of a major over haul. There isn't enough of a build up to it, with all sorts of choices and possibilities to cover, before we get up to the intervention.

2. As for the reason the US joined the intervention, there wasn't just one. Part was to keep European claims from expanding too much (and hurting Us business interests), a fascination with the Orient in the US (much like Egypt and India for Britain), to keep a semi-stable situation in China (to keep immigration down), and because the Boxers attacked the US Embassy. There's some other minor stuff as well, but that covers the major factors.

3. Ever since Perry went to Japan, the US has maintained an interest in the Orient. Irregardless if the control the Phillipines or not, the US should be allowed to intervene along with the other nations. Also, the US was able to intervene at the level they did, because units had not been demobilized from teh Span-Am war, and were "mopping up" in the Phillipines.

4. The US maintained a military presence in China (China Station) from about 1868 (Korean expedition), to 1950. Riverine patrols from Shanghai and Tientsin (Tientsin was after 1901), and US ground presence in the Yangtze valley. These will also have to be coordinated with Chinese events (and probably British, French, German/Prussian as well).

5. The wrangling between the powers about who would lead the punitive expedition also will have to be scripted, including all the involved nations (Italy, A-H, Germany/Prussia, Britain, France, Japan, Russia, US), as well as Seymour's failed relief column to Peking. Events for the rescue of the legations should also be put in.

6. Some flavor events, like Herbert Hoover's aiding in the defense of the Foreign Quarter in Tientsin can also be tossed in.

7. Should Texas or CSA exist at the time, I don't really see either as being participants. Unless they have an alliance with a major european power, I don't see either as having an interest. Texas especially.

I have more sources on this to check, but that should cover things so far.

I've shelved my attempts to adapt the Boxer events. Ideally, there should be events for CSA, Texas, and an independent California which would trigger if they owned certain pacific possessions -- but successfully writing the triggers is apparently beyond my capabilities.

As for the Span-Am war, Victoria as designed is scripted so that if CSA exists, it fights the war with Spain instead of the U.S. I find that to be perceptually correct to me, so for now I've left that as it is. Texas involvement, etc. I've left to the general diplo system.

 

[aprof]

Aragos, Met: Which emancipation events have we decided on. Mo's or Theo's?

 

[Theodotus1]

Aprof--
How are we looking for events for the first version? Any still need to be coded?
Aragos

PS--I'm planning on doing a couple for 1868 Korean intervention for USA. Will be interesting to code even if we don't use them

I've posted on Yahoo some postbellum Texas events I adapted from the CSA file, and also modified emancipation events for CSA that I think are better than the pre-existing ones. Use them if they appeal.

 

[Aragos]

Was coming in to ask you about the CSA navy events. Are they tested and ready? EDIT: I see them in the acw events and various events files.
I just checked Mo's post-bellum CSA events and added to the big CSA file. I'll add your and Met's ACW events next. I know you've tested them already.
You mean the seizure of the General Sherman and murder of its crew, with the following Admiral Rodgers expedition to Korea? Great! (I used that as inspiration for part of my narrative in my beta AAR.)

CSA navy is ready to go and tested.
I'll get to work on the Korea events tonight (yep, thems the ones!).

 

[Mettermrck]

Aprof, I like Theo's ideas for Texas emancipation, which is a good add-on to what Mozart coded, particularly how it starts earlier (with likely rejection) and increases consciousness. I'd say go with Theo's stuff (giving co-credit).

 

[Aragos]

Aragos, Met: Which emancipation events have we decided on. Mo's or Theo's?

Bossman,
I say we go with Theo's for the TEX events. However, we need to go with a rule of thumb for 'reimbursed emancipation' as 10K per slave pop greater than 10K. In other words if TEX or CSA has 10 Slave POPs, none smaller in number than 10000 at the start of the game (or 1860, if you want), the rule of thumb should be -10K$ per POP (total = -100000). A lot of money, but not too horribly much.
Option 2 would be -10K per province, whether it has slaves or not, just to reflect the economic impact of the end of slavery (i.e., farm costs go up because no more slave labor, hence food prices go up, etc.)/

Personally, the CSA Emancipation should cost a cool million $. It would have been just a traumatic as the Irish famine event is for the UK (which costs 1M to fix).

Let me know if you want to use the Cuba events I posted. They just need to be cut and pasted into your stuff on the Yahoo server and have numbers assigned.

For everyone--take a look at the number of visits and posts to the VIP USA,etc thread. You can tell who is doing all the work

A

 

[Theodotus1]

Bossman,
I say we go with Theo's for the TEX events. However, we need to go with a rule of thumb for 'reimbursed emancipation' as 10K per slave pop greater than 10K. In other words if TEX or CSA has 10 Slave POPs, none smaller in number than 10000 at the start of the game (or 1860, if you want), the rule of thumb should be -10K$ per POP (total = -100000). A lot of money, but not too horribly much.
Option 2 would be -10K per province, whether it has slaves or not, just to reflect the economic impact of the end of slavery (i.e., farm costs go up because no more slave labor, hence food prices go up, etc.)/

Personally, the CSA Emancipation should cost a cool million $. It would have been just a traumatic as the Irish famine event is for the UK (which costs 1M to fix).

Let me know if you want to use the Cuba events I posted. They just need to be cut and pasted into your stuff on the Yahoo server and have numbers assigned.

For everyone--take a look at the number of visits and posts to the VIP USA,etc thread. You can tell who is doing all the work

A

When I chose the 10,000 figure, that wasn't assuming full compensation. It just assumes a relatively token compensation made as a political carrot. I don't perceive full compensation as being realistic -- it would cost too much, and the government would be likely to find ways to stiff people to some extent.

Good point about the cost of the Irish Famine in game, though. Based on that reasoning, I think I'm in support of the 1 million figure for CSA. (Perhaps decrease it in increments of 100k in each succeeding event, since there are four progressive events -- so that the second event costs 900k instead of a million, etc. This would signify a gradual decrease in slave value over time in connection with a developing societal consensus that emancipation was coming eventually.

As for Texas, a cost figure should be based on the ration of CSA slave population at start to TEX slave population at start, related to the 1 million CSA figure. I think it's better to use a static number in the event code rather than a math formula -- less chance of strange results due to formula calculations, me thinks.

 

[Mettermrck]

I think it's hard to gauge just how realistic some of these money figures are. Like for Guadalupe-Hidalgo, the US is paying 15,000 pounds to Mexico. For my Cuba purchase event, it's 25,000. So 10,000 isn't too bad in terms of scale. If this were the CSA, with a lot more emancipated slaves, then the figure would skyrocket.

 

[Theodotus1]

I think it's hard to gauge just how realistic some of these money figures are. Like for Guadalupe-Hidalgo, the US is paying 15,000 pounds to Mexico. For my Cuba purchase event, it's 25,000. So 10,000 isn't too bad in terms of scale. If this were the CSA, with a lot more emancipated slaves, then the figure would skyrocket.

These were also my thoughts when I decided on the 10k figure. So maybe there's a sweet spot in regard to Texas somewhere between the 1 million for CSA (which I like, due to reference to the cost of the Irish Famine), and 10k I initially chose.

 

[Theodotus1]

I've also posted the gold events I adapted. They are in standard format for the goldevents file, and can just be added, if that is wished.

 

[Aragos]

You mean the seizure of the General Sherman and murder of its crew, with the following Admiral Rodgers expedition to Korea? Great! (I used that as inspiration for part of my narrative in my beta AAR.)

As per your request. Not tested and still needs an ID number assigned.

#######################################################################
##########1871 Korean Expedition
##########by Aragos####################################################

event = {
id = 304xxx
random = no
country = USA

trigger = {
exists = KOR #is this the right country?
NOT = {
war = { country = USA country = CSA }
}
}



name = "The Korean Expedition"
desc = "Korea, known as 'the Hermit Kingdom' by Westerners, was the scene of a little known 1871 US punitive expedition. In this campaign, the US Asiatic Fleet of five warships responded to the Korean destruction of a US merchant ship. Landing 1,230 US Marines and Army forces, they routed a Korean force, killing 350 Koreans and destroying five forts at the mouth of the Han River. It was the first major US action in Asia since Perry's visit to Japan."
style = 0

date = { year = 1871 month = january day = 1 }
offset = 300
deathdate = { year = 1871 month = december day = 1 }

action_a = {
name = "Land the Marines!"
command = { type = relation which = CHI value = -20 }
command = { type = relation which = JPN value = 20 }#expedition was launched from Japan with their blessing
command = { type = treasury value = -200 } #represents costs of expedition
command = { type = prestige value = 50 }
}

action_b = {
name = "This is War!"
command = { type = relation which = CHI value = -50 }
command = { type = relation which = JPN value = 40 }#expedition was launched from Japan with their blessing
command = { type = prestige value = 50 }
command = { type = war which = KOR }
}


}

 

[Mettermrck]

Oh, may I assume the Korean expedition would trash relations with Korea?

command = { type = relation which = KOR value = -200 }

 

[aprof]

Aprof, I like Theo's ideas for Texas emancipation, which is a good add-on to what Mozart coded, particularly how it starts earlier (with likely rejection) and increases consciousness. I'd say go with Theo's stuff (giving co-credit).

Bossman,
I say we go with Theo's for the TEX events. However, we need to go with a rule of thumb for 'reimbursed emancipation' as 10K per slave pop greater than 10K. In other words if TEX or CSA has 10 Slave POPs, none smaller in number than 10000 at the start of the game (or 1860, if you want), the rule of thumb should be -10K$ per POP (total = -100000). A lot of money, but not too horribly much.
Option 2 would be -10K per province, whether it has slaves or not, just to reflect the economic impact of the end of slavery (i.e., farm costs go up because no more slave labor, hence food prices go up, etc.)/

Personally, the CSA Emancipation should cost a cool million $. It would have been just a traumatic as the Irish famine event is for the UK (which costs 1M to fix).

OK, Theo's it is.

Let me know if you want to use the Cuba events I posted. They just need to be cut and pasted into your stuff on the Yahoo server and have numbers assigned.

I cut and pasted them in last night. (I think I uploaded a new version of that file with some other changes last night, too.)

I don't think I'll have the Sp-Am events ready by the weekend though, so if you have more ideas, especially concerning the Phillippines, then post them.

For everyone--take a look at the number of visits and posts to the VIP USA,etc thread. You can tell who is doing all the work
A

Well we knew who that was.

 

[aprof]

I've also posted the gold events I adapted. They are in standard format for the goldevents file, and can just be added, if that is wished.

They're in as events 304310-304313.

 

[Aragos]

Oh, may I assume the Korean expedition would trash relations with Korea?

command = { type = relation which = KOR value = -200 }

Knew I forgot a line there somewhere!
Thx!

 

[Aragos]

When I chose the 10,000 figure, that wasn't assuming full compensation. It just assumes a relatively token compensation made as a political carrot. I don't perceive full compensation as being realistic -- it would cost too much, and the government would be likely to find ways to stiff people to some extent.

Good point about the cost of the Irish Famine in game, though. Based on that reasoning, I think I'm in support of the 1 million figure for CSA. (Perhaps decrease it in increments of 100k in each succeeding event, since there are four progressive events -- so that the second event costs 900k instead of a million, etc. This would signify a gradual decrease in slave value over time in connection with a developing societal consensus that emancipation was coming eventually.

As for Texas, a cost figure should be based on the ration of CSA slave population at start to TEX slave population at start, related to the 1 million CSA figure. I think it's better to use a static number in the event code rather than a math formula -- less chance of strange results due to formula calculations, me thinks.

Sounds like a plan to me. I'll leave it up to your decision on how much it will cost, but it seems like we are on the same wavelength.

 

[JRaup]

I've shelved my attempts to adapt the Boxer events. Ideally, there should be events for CSA, Texas, and an independent California which would trigger if they owned certain pacific possessions -- but successfully writing the triggers is apparently beyond my capabilities.

As for the Span-Am war, Victoria as designed is scripted so that if CSA exists, it fights the war with Spain instead of the U.S. I find that to be perceptually correct to me, so for now I've left that as it is. Texas involvement, etc. I've left to the general diplo system.

OK. On Texas and California, unless they some how grow significantly bigger than their starting states/provinces, I just don't see them as being significant enough, nor powerful enough, to warrant such treatment. I will concede about the CSA, as if they "win" the ACW, and then manage to industrialize, they could be a significant player.

And agreed on the Span-Am war. I do see the CSA being involved, especially over Cuba. Still, some interesting possibilities remain, that may not be best left to the diplo system. For example, the US should have some sort of response, with A being neutrality, B being join the CSA, C being join Spain. I just can't see teh US ignoring a move like that by the CSA. But as you said, triggers can be a pain. And again, it could provide a possibility for reconcilliation betwen the two, even more so if the CSA emancipation events have triggered. I'll have to wait and see how things generally play out first though with the first release.