Generalisimo said:
Ugh, forgot about the resource requirements.
(at self mind you)Maybe by event then? Triggered by some of the removal events?
-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Ugh, forgot about the resource requirements.
(at self mind you)Maybe by event then? Triggered by some of the removal events?
I've really come to like the possibilities with the inclusion of the Native American nations as dominions of USA, ENG and MEX. This is looking like it will be a very good way to balance the industrial monster that the USA can become as well as fairly simulate the development of the American West.
I'm sure I'll be making lots of suggestions, but I think my role in the development of it should be more in keeping track of the changes and how they impact triggering the ACW.
Anyway, I have a whole list of tweaks to the ACW, CSA and USA files I want to do for 04, as well as the aviation events and researching more exploration events like the antarctica events.
And I just got Villa and Zapata - a history of the Mexican Revolution from amazon.com, and I'm hoping to spur Theo into working on developing that more fully for 04.
I'm sure I'll be making lots of suggestions, but I think my role in the development of it should be more in keeping track of the changes and how they impact triggering the ACW.
Anyway, I have a whole list of tweaks to the ACW, CSA and USA files I want to do for 04, as well as the aviation events and researching more exploration events like the antarctica events.
And I just got Villa and Zapata - a history of the Mexican Revolution from amazon.com, and I'm hoping to spur Theo into working on developing that more fully for 04.
JRaup said:
These holdings do not simply represent those specific Native American nations but are to represent the general culural regions of Native American groups (Northern Plains/Southern Plains/Southwest Desert/Northwest/Canadian Shield). The names used are more for gameplay - we can use Northern Plains Native Americans instead of Sioux, just sounds more bureaucratic.
This was a first draft. In the interim I have found an excellent site maintained by I believe the Library of Congress that provides information, and maps, of lands ceded by Native American peoples. Having found that info I will be making an updated map tonight with some territory changes. Milwaukee and Davenport provinces will go back to the USA, as will the Missouri and Arkansas provinces I have currently put in with the Cherokee, while Western Lower Michigan will start as Sioux and be the first province for transfer (the date of transfer for the majority of that region was in October 1836, just ahead of statheood)
To check out the site, click this : http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/amlaw/lwss-ilc.html The maps alone are worth checking out!
Again I am trying to capture the territory of a cultural region and there were small bands of Native American communitied in the region. I'd rather have them under native control than blank to my thinking.
That will have to be one of the things we test - hence why this is just a proposal for 0.4, plenty of time to test
Again same answer I'll give for California, I think it makes more sense keeping it as part of Native controlled territory than to call it blank land. We'll see how it goes in testing and it won't be too difficult to change if consensus is the land should be blank.
Yes, the whole point of me bringing up the natives was the fact that
A) They were unrepresented
B) The whole situation in North America was greatly simplified by Paradox. Adding natives will make the manifest destiny slightly longer and maybe rougher to complete than it would be just colonising everything in your way and getting free prestige for it. Its not like Prussia or something would be like IMPRESSIVE, THEY CAPTURED THE LAND RIGHT ON THEIR BORDER FROM NOTHING!
A) They were unrepresented
B) The whole situation in North America was greatly simplified by Paradox. Adding natives will make the manifest destiny slightly longer and maybe rougher to complete than it would be just colonising everything in your way and getting free prestige for it. Its not like Prussia or something would be like IMPRESSIVE, THEY CAPTURED THE LAND RIGHT ON THEIR BORDER FROM NOTHING!
OHgamer said:These holdings do not simply represent those specific Native American nations but are to represent the general culural regions of Native American groups (Northern Plains/Southern Plains/Southwest Desert/Northwest/Canadian Shield). The names used are more for gameplay - we can use Northern Plains Native Americans instead of Sioux, just sounds more bureaucratic.
This was a first draft. In the interim I have found an excellent site maintained by I believe the Library of Congress that provides information, and maps, of lands ceded by Native American peoples. Having found that info I will be making an updated map tonight with some territory changes. Milwaukee and Davenport provinces will go back to the USA, as will the Missouri and Arkansas provinces I have currently put in with the Cherokee, while Western Lower Michigan will start as Sioux and be the first province for transfer (the date of transfer for the majority of that region was in October 1836, just ahead of statheood)
To check out the site, click this : http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/amlaw/lwss-ilc.html The maps alone are worth checking out!
Again I am trying to capture the territory of a cultural region and there were small bands of Native American communitied in the region. I'd rather have them under native control than blank to my thinking.
That will have to be one of the things we test - hence why this is just a proposal for 0.4, plenty of time to test
Again same answer I'll give for California, I think it makes more sense keeping it as part of Native controlled territory than to call it blank land. We'll see how it goes in testing and it won't be too difficult to change if consensus is the land should be blank.
In regard to Texas, I don't think these changes will be a problem. Texas is already subject to instant reconquest by Mexico (up to 1845, IIRC) if Mexico controls Houston, Dallas, and Austin, so I don't think this makes Texas' situation any more precarious. Instead what it does accomplish is that it eliminates the unbalancing prestige gain Mexico was getting if it reconquered Texas. Overall, I think the effects of this new scheme will work out for the best.
I also think that the layout is fine in regard to California. It matches what I found when I was researching California history, prior to writing the Republic of California events.
I agree to that it would be better to have provinces be under Native control than blank. The natives may have roamed across the landscape, but that didn't mean they didn't think of the territory as theirs. We can use treaty events (and removal/reservation events) to transfer the land, and that will prevent the problematic USA prestige gain.
aprof said:I've really come to like the possibilities with the inclusion of the Native American nations as dominions of USA, ENG and MEX. This is looking like it will be a very good way to balance the industrial monster that the USA can become as well as fairly simulate the development of the American West.
I'm sure I'll be making lots of suggestions, but I think my role in the development of it should be more in keeping track of the changes and how they impact triggering the ACW.
Anyway, I have a whole list of tweaks to the ACW, CSA and USA files I want to do for 04, as well as the aviation events and researching more exploration events like the antarctica events.
And I just got Villa and Zapata - a history of the Mexican Revolution from amazon.com, and I'm hoping to spur Theo into working on developing that more fully for 04.
I'm excited about both further developing Mexican history and about working on the Native American project.
I'd like to help with the Native American project in any way that I can.
I'm also primed to flesh out both the Porfirio Diaz era (I'd like to develop something like the type of events we used in regard to the Reforma -- something that puts the player in Diaz's shoes, and requires the walking of a tightrope between despotism and anarchy/revolution) and the Revolution of 1910 (I have great respect for Madero, though he made fatal errors in regard to his mercy for his opponents; and I have a growing admiration for Zapata).
So I'm game for working on all of these topics as much as possible.
Last edited:
I really like some of the ideas here in dealing with the west since it'd make for some gamebalancing and by having it not be the cakewalk it is now. With this method, couldn't we also have it where the US flag changes when new states are added since it would make for a really good addition since having flag changes is just something that I think needs to be done if for no other reason than fun factor.
Have the various treaties dealing with the Mexican-American war been fixed yet, or does this new setup idea causes the treaties to be modified? I was curious as well if there's a reverse treaty event where the Mexicans are victorous since I have seen this happen so I'd like to see a debate on what would the reverse treaty consist of, I would think one idea is having Mexico earn cores on the southwest since it would make North America real interesting if Mexico was in a much stronger situation than it was historically. That and has anyone come up with having a different flag for the Empire of Mexico since as I have stated before, more flags used would be good.
I have one final query for now, has anyone dealt with the Zimmerman telegram situation yet? It could be an interesting thread to add since what if Mexico did join the central powers by taking the ahistorical choice? Even more interesting would be what would the terms of victory or defeat be as well? One thought on this I have would be if Maximillian survived and the monarchy still was around, maybe it'd be more likely to of joined the Central powers then in an interesting "what if.." version of the Great War where an American front existed as well.
Have the various treaties dealing with the Mexican-American war been fixed yet, or does this new setup idea causes the treaties to be modified? I was curious as well if there's a reverse treaty event where the Mexicans are victorous since I have seen this happen so I'd like to see a debate on what would the reverse treaty consist of, I would think one idea is having Mexico earn cores on the southwest since it would make North America real interesting if Mexico was in a much stronger situation than it was historically. That and has anyone come up with having a different flag for the Empire of Mexico since as I have stated before, more flags used would be good.
I have one final query for now, has anyone dealt with the Zimmerman telegram situation yet? It could be an interesting thread to add since what if Mexico did join the central powers by taking the ahistorical choice? Even more interesting would be what would the terms of victory or defeat be as well? One thought on this I have would be if Maximillian survived and the monarchy still was around, maybe it'd be more likely to of joined the Central powers then in an interesting "what if.." version of the Great War where an American front existed as well.
ImperialMog said:
1. I doubt we'll be implementing a flag change for each new state. Besides, at most usual resolutions, you can't tell how many stars there are anyway.
2. In regards to changes in the American west, things are being reworked slightly so as to accomodate all the changes. This includes an alt-history event for a Mexican victory in the Mex-Am War. We're also thinking of including teh Empire of Mexico as a new nation, but no promises on that.
3. The Zimmerman telegram is a bit beyond where we're at at the moment. Right now, I'd say that we're pretty solid up to about 1870. Anything after that will be worked on for future releases.
ImperialMog said:
There will be such an event added. One result of it will be that Mexico will keep Alta California (California, Nevada, Utah and Arizona) and will regain Texas. I like your idea of adding cores for Mexico which cover the southwest. I'm going to add this idea to my file, and incorporate it into the event when the event is written.
The new event should be included in 0.4. However, I'm not going to write it until we've finished adding the Native Nations, since that project may significantly effect how things work in North America.
You sure about putting western michigan under Native control?
You have Grand Rapids and Lansing (Our capital) in that province.
You have Grand Rapids and Lansing (Our capital) in that province.
Burris said:
The treaty that ceded the northern 2/3 of the Victoria province of Lansing was signed in October 1836, on the eve of statehood. Since more that half the territory of the province was involved I would argue it makes sense to start it as native control, and it will be the first province ceded in this process.
I just noticed on your maps that shouldn't the southern Florida province also be under native control to represent the Seminoles?
ImperialMog said:
There is a Seminole revolt event that occurs within the first 6 months of the start of the GC and the treaties between the US Govt and the Seminoles were signed in 1832 to establish the Seminole reservation in Central Florida which proved less than adequate for Seminole needs, sparking the revolt.
I've had a chance to do some research this morning, and my memory of the date for Payne's Landing was faulty. This Treaty was signed in 1832, so 'legally' the reservation had already been ceded and supposedly the Seminole had agreed to be removed to Oklahoma.
Their arguments that they did not approve the lands in Oklahoma, that the various chiefs either did not sign the Treaty of Payne's Landing or were coerced into signing, and that they were still abiding by the earlier Treaty of Moultrie Creek would be the reason for the Seminole War to be started in Florida. So the present situation is fairly represented in VIP.
Their arguments that they did not approve the lands in Oklahoma, that the various chiefs either did not sign the Treaty of Payne's Landing or were coerced into signing, and that they were still abiding by the earlier Treaty of Moultrie Creek would be the reason for the Seminole War to be started in Florida. So the present situation is fairly represented in VIP.
Hi again guys. Its been a while, so I figure I can jump right into the debate
The only concern I have with creating native American 'nations' is the BB that the USA will generate taking them out. I mean, would Russia DoW the USA over conquering the midwest? I like the idea in principle, in that it would better reflect the early settlement of the American West, but we have to consider the impact on the Vicky system/engine as well.
The only concern I have with creating native American 'nations' is the BB that the USA will generate taking them out. I mean, would Russia DoW the USA over conquering the midwest? I like the idea in principle, in that it would better reflect the early settlement of the American West, but we have to consider the impact on the Vicky system/engine as well.
I went through a game as the US and I have the following oberservations that I don't know if you knew or not.
One thing I had was have universal suffarage early on to prevent revolts, but it caused the pre-war Democrats to win every election and for some reason the party wasn't deactivated. It then caused slavery to exist all the way through the end of the game. Also I had the Egrets recover event right after an event for where they are extinct. Also the boll wevil events cause production of cotton to go negative. *not sure how one can produce a negative amount of something*
By having the ACW not happen, even with Republicans winning every election in one game. I had the Southwest overrun with reactionary rebels and caused California and Deseret to form. Stranger was them set up as absolute monarchies. Are you guys going to add flags for alternate governments for the various nations since it would be funny to see monarchy California and Deseret flags. Also for various nations to add a British dominion flag version if these nations can be a dominion.
One thing I had was have universal suffarage early on to prevent revolts, but it caused the pre-war Democrats to win every election and for some reason the party wasn't deactivated. It then caused slavery to exist all the way through the end of the game. Also I had the Egrets recover event right after an event for where they are extinct. Also the boll wevil events cause production of cotton to go negative.
*not sure how one can produce a negative amount of something*By having the ACW not happen, even with Republicans winning every election in one game. I had the Southwest overrun with reactionary rebels and caused California and Deseret to form. Stranger was them set up as absolute monarchies.
Are you guys going to add flags for alternate governments for the various nations since it would be funny to see monarchy California and Deseret flags. Also for various nations to add a British dominion flag version if these nations can be a dominion.
ImperialMog said:I went through a game as the US and I have the following oberservations that I don't know if you knew or not.
One thing I had was have universal suffarage early on to prevent revolts, but it caused the pre-war Democrats to win every election and for some reason the party wasn't deactivated. It then caused slavery to exist all the way through the end of the game. Also I had the Egrets recover event right after an event for where they are extinct. Also the boll wevil events cause production of cotton to go negative.
The egrets event has been looked at to see why that happens. One of the two 'result' events should be slept in the initial event, but it doesn't always happen. As it is a flavor event, it'll likely be 04 before we have it fixed.
The cotton disaster events are province owner events and I forgot the fact that an event for one province affects the whole state. There are three or four states that get events for two provinces, so that's what makes it go to negatives. It is fixed for 03b.