VIP - North America - Canada, Mexico, USA, + Revolters

[Theodotus1]

I think that the pop-militancy results of these events (VIP .1) need to be looked at. First of all, two +2 militancies is a huge swing that that results in a circa 14% revolt risk in New York alone. I tried playing through with the event as written twice and the entire North revolted. Which brings up the second point. It's kind of ridiculous to think that the Yankee population would become reactionary or anarcho-liberal and start revolting because two new states were added. I know you need to simulate the rising sectional tension and balance off two big additions to the Union's power, but I don't think this is the right way to go.

Possible solutions:

-Make the militancy swing only +1 or -1 where appropriate.

-Drop the Deseret militancy entirely since it was pretty apparent that the land was not suitable for slavery. The real issue was further south and in California. That debate is already reflected in the Kansas-Nebraska Act and Dred Scott, so adding it to Deseret is kind of overkill.

-Reduce militancy when the Compromise of 1850 is passed, depending on what choice is picked.

-Tie California statehood to the Compromise of 1850, as it historically was.

-Switch from militancy to consciousness, or split between militancy and consciouness, and/or add a dominant issue set to slavery/citizenship.

-Make options to accept as territories with reduced penalties ( Deseret has this option already but word has it that it's not working).

-Offer choice to make free or make slave.

The conceptual problem I see with these events is that they are written as if the issue of the states' slavery status was already decided in favor of slavery. Under the current setup, US acceptance of these two territories leads to a revolt in the North and a happy South. The opposite should be true as both territories ultimately wound up rejecting slavery when they became states. The events seem to skip the debate and go right into an ahistorical situation without offering the player a choice.

For now, I've changed the militancy effects of the California and Deseret statehood events to consciousness effects at +1 and -1 instead of +2 and -2. (This is connected not so much to whether Deseret is actually suitable for slave labor, but instead to fears or hopes regarding the expansion of slavery to new additions to the Union in general.)

Tying California statehood to the Compromise is something I'll look into.

Accepting either California or Deseret as a state apparently actually turns them into a territory in the game. (At least, this was reported with Deseret.) So the territory choice in the old Deseret event was dropped, since it apparently didn't work.

At least we now have proof the California and Deseret events do actually fire. (There had been a report to the contrary.)

 

[Theodotus1]

OK, looking for input on tying California and Deseret statehood to the Compromise of 1850. (Since that's easier than trying to work in actual territorial acceptance of New Mexico and Arizona, even if a bit ahistorical.)

What's a good way to go about this? Or should things be left as is?

EDIT: The date on this should be changed to fall in September of 1850, which was when the bills historically passed.

This is the current event:

event = {
id = 304998 #replaces 14109
random = no
country = USA

name = "EVT_14109_NAME"
desc = "EVT_14109_DESC"
style = 0

date = { day = 29 month = january year = 1850 }

action_a = {
name = "Compromise" # Compromise
command = { type = setflag which = flg_1850_compromise_1 }
}

action_b = {
name = "Pro-Slavery" # Pro-South
command = { type = setflag which = flg_1850_compromise_2 }
command = { type = setflag which = flg_slave_california }
command = { type = setflag which = flg_slave_arizona }
command = { type = setflag which = flg_slave_newmexico }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = full_citizenship where = 623 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = full_citizenship where = 627 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = full_citizenship where = 626 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = full_citizenship where = 629 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = full_citizenship where = 628 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = full_citizenship where = 572 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = full_citizenship where = 583 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = full_citizenship where = 584 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = full_citizenship where = 591 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = full_citizenship where = 598 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = full_citizenship where = 604 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = full_citizenship where = 546 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = full_citizenship where = 602 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = full_citizenship where = 569 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = full_citizenship where = 549 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = full_citizenship where = 543 }
}

action_c = {
name = "Pro-Abolitionist" # Pro-Abolition
command = { type = setflag which = flg_1850_compromise_3 }
command = { type = setflag which = flg_kansas_nebraska_1 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = slavery where = 586 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = slavery where = 587 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = slavery where = 593 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = slavery where = 1200 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = slavery where = 1203 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = slavery where = 1208 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = slavery where = 1211 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = slavery where = 1174 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = slavery where = 1169 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = slavery where = 1173 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = slavery where = 596 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = slavery where = 541 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = slavery where = 1178 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = slavery where = 1144 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = slavery where = 1181 }
}
}

 

[Niptium]

For now, I've changed the militancy effects of the California and Deseret statehood events to consciousness effects at +1 and -1 instead of +2 and -2. (This is connected not so much to whether Deseret is actually suitable for slave labor, but instead to fears or hopes regarding the expansion of slavery to new additions to the Union in general.)

Tying California statehood to the Compromise is something I'll look into.

Accepting either California or Deseret as a state apparently actually turns them into a territory in the game. (At least, this was reported with Deseret.) So the territory choice in the old Deseret event was dropped, since it apparently didn't work.

At least we now have proof the California and Deseret events do actually fire. (There had been a report to the contrary.)

By the way, where can I make my POP files available for the corrected Canada and Québec ?

 

[Theodotus1]

By the way, where can I make my POP files available for the corrected Canada and Québec ?

Aprof, can you set him up to upload things to Yahoo?

 

[pimparel]

command = { type = setflag which = flg_1850_compromise_1 }
command = { type = setflag which = flg_1850_compromise_2 }
command = { type = setflag which = flg_slave_california }
command = { type = setflag which = flg_slave_arizona }
command = { type = setflag which = flg_slave_newmexico }
command = { type = setflag which = flg_1850_compromise_3 }
command = { type = setflag which = flg_kansas_nebraska_1 }

You need to define a value with the setflag command. The event is bugged? If it is the problem must be the lack of value.

Example

command = { type = setflag which = flg_1850_compromise_1 [b]value = 1[/b] }

 

[unmerged(14164)]

Just played through a game as Texas. Much fun! Great work! I sold a claim off to the US, and used the money to institute full social reforms. By the early 50's my population was 12+ million.

The Civil War never triggered but I presume this was because of the 'Reconstruction Issues'.

My only complaint, and this is more logistical than substantive, is that every Indian, Fort, etc..., flavor event is coded to a particular country. Presumably if the USA, Mexico, France, or any civilized country owned the designated province they would have similar desires to fend off indians and construct forts.

Would it work to remove the country specific tag and just use the 'province = x' and 'civilized = yes' tags? It seems like this would only cause negligible balance issues.

Keep up the good work,
Grendel

 

[Theodotus1]

Just played through a game as Texas. Much fun! Great work! I sold a claim off to the US, and used the money to institute full social reforms. By the early 50's my population was 12+ million.

The Civil War never triggered but I presume this was because of the 'Reconstruction Issues'.

My only complaint, and this is more logistical than substantive, is that every Indian, Fort, etc..., flavor event is coded to a particular country. Presumably if the USA, Mexico, France, or any civilized country owned the designated province they would have similar desires to fend off indians and construct forts.

Would it work to remove the country specific tag and just use the 'province = x' and 'civilized = yes' tags? It seems like this would only cause negligible balance issues.

Keep up the good work,
Grendel

Glad you liked it. (You must have either followed the Lamar Doctrine, or instituted a dictatorship, to be able to institute reforms. I'm curious as to what your experience with either of those was like.)

Did you ever get rid of slavery?

I don't know that universal fort events would work, but I'll ponder it.

It's possible the ACW didn't trigger because the Republicans didn't get elected in 1860, but it might also be a glitch. (The Compromise of 1850 appears to have flag problems at the moment.)

 

[Theodotus1]

You need to define a value with the setflag command. The event is bugged? If it is the problem must be the lack of value.

Example

command = { type = setflag which = flg_1850_compromise_1 [b]value = 1[/b] }

Good catch. Hadn't notice this. (Didn't write the event.) I'll see about fixing it right now. (The original Paradox event apparently has the same problem with the set_flag commands.)

EDIT: Here's my fixes. Author input would be appreciated, in case the flags should have different values than 1.

event = {
id = 304998 #replaces 14109
random = no
country = USA

name = "EVT_14109_NAME"
desc = "EVT_14109_DESC"
style = 0

date = { day = 1 month = september year = 1850 }
offset = 30

action_a = {
name = "Compromise" # Compromise
command = { type = setflag which = flg_1850_compromise_1 value = 1 }
}

action_b = {
name = "Pro-Slavery" # Pro-South
command = { type = setflag which = flg_1850_compromise_2 value = 1 }
command = { type = setflag which = flg_slave_california value = 1 }
command = { type = setflag which = flg_slave_arizona value = 1 }
command = { type = setflag which = flg_slave_newmexico value = 1 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = full_citizenship where = 623 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = full_citizenship where = 627 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = full_citizenship where = 626 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = full_citizenship where = 629 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = full_citizenship where = 628 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = full_citizenship where = 572 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = full_citizenship where = 583 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = full_citizenship where = 584 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = full_citizenship where = 591 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = full_citizenship where = 598 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = full_citizenship where = 604 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = full_citizenship where = 546 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = full_citizenship where = 602 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = full_citizenship where = 569 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = full_citizenship where = 549 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = full_citizenship where = 543 }
}

action_c = {
name = "Pro-Abolitionist" # Pro-Abolition
command = { type = setflag which = flg_1850_compromise_3 value = 1 }
command = { type = setflag which = flg_kansas_nebraska_1 value = 1 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = slavery where = 586 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = slavery where = 587 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = slavery where = 593 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = slavery where = 1200 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = slavery where = 1203 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = slavery where = 1208 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = slavery where = 1211 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = slavery where = 1174 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = slavery where = 1169 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = slavery where = 1173 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = slavery where = 596 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = slavery where = 541 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = slavery where = 1178 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = slavery where = 1144 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = 10 value = slavery where = 1181 }
}
}

EDIT: I suspect the flag problems here would really screw up the approach to the ACW.

 

[pimparel]

Theodotus1,

I am not sure, but those starting values in the VIPScen.eug are higher than you specified. Check them.

 

[Theodotus1]

Theodotus1,

I am not sure, but those starting values in the VIPScen.eug are higher than you specified. Check them.

Do you mean starting values for resources? If so, I've looked at them, and they look OK to me.

 

[pimparel]

Which starting values? Do you mean for resources? If so, I've looked at them, and they look OK to me.

If you're referring to something else, let me know.

The setflag values.

 

[Theodotus1]

The setflag values.

Hmmm. My analysis of the USA events that appear to be triggered by the Compromise of 1850 flags seems to indicate that a setting of 1 is what's needed. But I could be wrong. (Or I may still be misunderstanding you. I'm a bit dense today, I think.)

EDIT: Checking the .eug file now, and trying to sort everything out.

EDIT: After looking at the flags in the .eug file, I think that a value of 1 is correct. This will apparently set the relevant states to be slave states.

 

[unmerged(14164)]

I let Lamar remake Texas in his image. All of the events seemed to have fired correctly, and the choices presented were balanced (that is both the A and B options had validity, something that does not seem to be true for all of VIP unfortunately).

I looked back over my history file and it does seem that the Republicans only got elected in '65. Unless the South managed to industrialize between '61 and '65, or free its slaves I would think the same issues that wracked the country in '61 would persist in '65.

Yes I did free the slaves by getting a non-slavery party into power, this hapened around '68 which seems appropriate. The various emancipations do not set a slave flag for Texas. The flag could be used to determine if the North or the South asks Texas to join, as well as if Texas decides to coop Mexico and institute a dictatorship.

 

[Theodotus1]

I let Lamar remake Texas in his image. All of the events seemed to have fired correctly, and the choices presented were balanced (that is both the A and B options had validity, something that does not seem to be true for all of VIP unfortunately). I'm pleased that the party-triggered emancipation events seem to be firing correctly.

I looked back over my history file and it does seem that the Republicans only got elected in '65. Unless the South managed to industrialize between '61 and '65, or free its slaves I would think the same issues that wracked the country in '61 would persist in '65.

Yes I did free the slaves by getting a non-slavery party into power, this hapened around '68 which seems appropriate. The various emancipations do not set a slave flag for Texas. The flag could be used to determine if the North or the South asks Texas to join, as well as if Texas decides to coop Mexico and institute a dictatorship.

Many thanks for the information. The Lamar Doctrine does strike me as a good route for an independent Texas, but I've not yet had enough playing time to really explore it. (Been too busy writing events before 1.03 came out, and fixing bugs after. Figured in-depth testing should await 1.03, since there would be many changes with 1.03.)

I've generally tried to make all choices in my events have a purpose, depending on circumstances.

We're in the process of sorting out event paths regarding alternate paths to and around the ACW. (Also, there are apparently a few bugs in regard to some of the pre-ACW events triggering, due to flag setting issues, and this may have had an effect. I'm endeavoring to fix these now.)

Your comments regarding the slavery flag are something I'll definitely ponder. Texas remains under development, and more will be added before too long. (Actually, I've added four replacement events and two missing events to Texas today. I'm also working on Mexico.)

 

[Theodotus1]

When it comes to adding to USA, I'd say we should focus first on event trees regarding alternate paths to and around the ACW. I think these will be of most use to players.

(I'm also going to write an event sequence in which California and Deseret conspire to break from Mexico, for those games in which the Mex-Am war doesn't happen.)

 

[unmerged(1047)]

In my first game with the new events, I noticed one main issue - the lack of the California gold rush. I played up to 1852 and there was no change at all on California resources... while the historic discovery was in 1848, so at least one province should have shifted by now....

Am going to look at the event files, to see if the event didn't fire for some reason or if it's not there.

 

[Theodotus1]

In my first game with the new events, I noticed one main issue - the lack of the California gold rush. I played up to 1852 and there was no change at all on California resources... while the historic discovery was in 1848, so at least one province should have shifted by now....

Am going to look at the event files, to see if the event didn't fire for some reason or if it's not there.

The events are in the goldevents file. (These are Paradox events, afaik.)

 

[Mettermrck]

This Baltimore Incident event, at the top of the vip_usa.txt file. What year did that take place? I noticed it didn't have a date associated with it. Also, the A choice is war with Chile. Did we fight or invade Chile? If we didn't, we might want to make a protest event as choice B, and then war only as a last-resort, choice A. Or is this all triggered by a Chilean event? If so, we might want to put in a quick "#Triggered by CHL####" line in.

 

[Theodotus1]

Thoughts on emancipation from another thread:

On both sides, for the vast majority of participants the war was about state sovereignty and the right of secession. The fight fundamentally related to control over economic policy issues, and slavery entered into this economically and as a factor in Congressional representation. The ideological anti-slavery component grew over time in the north and made emancipation both politically possible and desirable.

Emancipation was proclaimed only on January 1, 1863, (though announced the previous September) and did not apply to states then represented in Congress nor certain counties under Federal occupation. If the war had ended December 31, 1862, there would have been no states in rebellion and no slaves emancipated. Reconstruction would not have occurred in anything like the form it took.

Certainly, it is likely that legal abolition of slavery would have followed by stages within the next decade or two. If the Civil War had not occurred, it would have taken longer. And, as historically happened, the status of the former slaves would in practice have been "Limited Citizenship (i.e., everything but the vote)" or "Residence" in most parts of the country. "Full Citizenship" for former slaves was not accomplished until much more recently.

So, gamewise, in the absence of emancipation, abolition should continue to be a contentious issue, with a series of events and decisions keyed to the policies of the party in power and the issues of the electorate, and eventually leading to gradual emancipation (e.g., one early proposal was to turn slaves into 18th C. style-indentured servants who would have to work 7 years to pay off their former masters). Probably only a Republican administration would have risked it, in the face of the bloc voting of the traditional Democratic solid south, and it would have to be done at a time when the political mood in the south would not precipitate a civil war. Mechanically, there would be increased revolt risk, and if Federal troops suppressed the revolters there would be some chance of inflaming that state into secession. In 1861 the domino effect created the civil war. At another time, it might have fizzled out so the secession would be abandoned or crushed. The more troops on patrol, obviously, the likelier the south would have accepted it.

An incidental event to this process would have been Early Democratic agitation for war against Spain to seize Cuba. "Why wait for '98?" is what I would call the event.

Sir Garnet

 

[Mettermrck]

Oh, Theo. Your 304335 John C. Fremont event and my 304598 "The Pathfinder" event overlap, since they have the same subject. Yours gives +1 research, mine +2 prestige. Did yours come out of the California file?