VIP - North America - Canada, Mexico, USA, + Revolters

[aprof]

I'll definitely be taking a look at the new events. (I like them as they look now. They're great for the changes after Juarez comes into power. I'll be thinking further about simulating the overthrow of the Centralists. I need to research a bit more about the change to Juarez's liberals -- that war should be simulated, definitely, but I've not yet hit on the best way to do so.)

I'm really glad you wrote these, because I was just starting to think about this period of Mexico.

As I've said before, I've had them in mind for a while, but it seemed to me that the 'Plan of Ayutla' event was solely a change of party event, and that forced a historical course upon the MEX player. With your 'Constitution of 1836' event - with its change to a presidential dictatorship - the 'Plan of Ayutla' becomes a turning point. It allows the MEX player a chance to either stay a dictatorship or become a democracy. Your event opened up the usefulness of my Reforma events. I like the possibilities now.

I agree, the Reform War should be in. Right now I'm not sure how to simulate it with rebels only, but I don't think we can justify having separate Liberal Mexico and Conservative Mexico nations. We'll have to conceive of an effective use of events and rebellions to simulate it.

We may also have to connect directly to any events of the Intervention. That forces an historic course to the MEX player (something I want to avoid) so let's do our best to find historic options for the player to escape.

I'm starting to get an overview of Mexican history, and it's a great story -- a long struggle for freedom with many setbacks. I intend to do everything I can to do it justice.

I'm become quite appreciative of Mexican history myself. I suspect once we get the Reform-Intervention period done, we'll turn to the Revolution of 1910?

 

[aprof]

Sort of a followup to what I just posted about the goals for Mexico...

Where are we of the North America Group headed in 0.2?

Mexico: Reform-Intervention for sure. Perhaps 1910.

USA: Met has events done/in mind for monetary issues. We should finish the Phillippine Insurrection events (though that may be nothing more than adding the proper U03 code for PHI to the commands in the present events and sending them to The General). What else should we look at?

Canada: Niptium's POP changes for Quebec. What else?

Central American States: ?

Caribbean: I think some basic flavor events for CUB, DOM and HAI (as done for COS, ELS, GUA, HON, NIC) will be where we should start.


This now prompts me to ask, is there a bigger picture to see? Generalisimo, is there a larger goal for all of VIP in 0.2? Should we pitch in to work on any particular region that has been underdeveloped?

 

[Generalisimo]

This now prompts me to ask, is there a bigger picture to see? Generalisimo, is there a larger goal for all of VIP in 0.2? Should we pitch in to work on any particular region that has been underdeveloped?

The Balkans, Asia & Africa are underdeveloped here...
If someone can cooperate there, it will be great.

 

[Theodotus1]

As I've said before, I've had them in mind for a while, but it seemed to me that the 'Plan of Ayutla' event was solely a change of party event, and that forced a historical course upon the MEX player. With your 'Constitution of 1836' event - with its change to a presidential dictatorship - the 'Plan of Ayutla' becomes a turning point. It allows the MEX player a chance to either stay a dictatorship or become a democracy. Your event opened up the usefulness of my Reforma events. I like the possibilities now.

I agree, the Reform War should be in. Right now I'm not sure how to simulate it with rebels only, but I don't think we can justify having separate Liberal Mexico and Conservative Mexico nations. We'll have to conceive of an effective use of events and rebellions to simulate it.

We may also have to connect directly to any events of the Intervention. That forces an historic course to the MEX player (something I want to avoid) so let's do our best to find historic options for the player to escape.

I'm become quite appreciative of Mexican history myself. I suspect once we get the Reform-Intervention period done, we'll turn to the Revolution of 1910?

Indeed. I don't want to force any particular course of action.

I expect we won't need to use actual revolter countries. I'm getting a bit of experience simulating revolutions in Mexico with my work on the Federalist-Centralist struggle. I think something satisfactory can be done with events and rebels, but I don't know exactly what yet. (Need to read more about the actual war, and see what comes to me.)

Revolution of 1910 would indeed be next.

EDIT: The thing with me about the constitution of 1836 event was that, growing up in Texas, I got to hear a lot about the Alamo and Santa Anna. (Visited the place more than once, back when I lived in Austin.) And the word always used regarding SA was "dictator." So the starting Mexican government didn't seem right to me, and when I checked into it I realized that Mexico had been a democracy (at least in name) right up until just before the game starts, at which point SA had changed the constitution. So I thought that should get into the game on day 1 of the GC. I'm pleased that the change in goverment type makes subsequent Mexican events have more significance -- those events grew out of that government change, just as different events would have grown if the government hadn't been changed then. I love that about history and alternate history. (We should work in as much plausible alternate history as possible.)

 

[Theodotus1]

The Balkans, Asia & Africa are underdeveloped here...
If someone can cooperate there, it will be great.

I'll be happy to work on any areas that need it. (I've been planning to work on the Zulus a bit eventually, anyway, unless someone else did so first -- I've previously studied the Zulus in some depth, and still have most of the sources. And I've got a reasonably good source or two about the scramble for Africa, so probably I'll focus some on that continent, once I've completed a bit more in the Americas.)

 

[Theodotus1]

Sort of a followup to what I just posted about the goals for Mexico...

Where are we of the North America Group headed in 0.2?

Mexico: Reform-Intervention for sure. Perhaps 1910.

USA: Met has events done/in mind for monetary issues. We should finish the Phillippine Insurrection events (though that may be nothing more than adding the proper U03 code for PHI to the commands in the present events and sending them to The General). What else should we look at?

Canada: Niptium's POP changes for Quebec. What else?

Central American States: ?

Caribbean: I think some basic flavor events for CUB, DOM and HAI (as done for COS, ELS, GUA, HON, NIC) will be where we should start.


This now prompts me to ask, is there a bigger picture to see? Generalisimo, is there a larger goal for all of VIP in 0.2? Should we pitch in to work on any particular region that has been underdeveloped?

I've got a bit more to add regarding Texas and Mexico. And I'm going to write an event sequence in which, if there's no Mex-Am war, California and Deseret conspire to break away from Mexico in the 1850s.

I also found a very interesting prediction from 1852 by the Mexican historical figure Lucas Alaman regarding where he thought the CSA (he foresaw the CSA) would be interested in conquering if it survived. (Can you say "all of the Caribbean and Central America?" Alaman perceived expansion aimed at fueling slavery and slaveholding.) So I want to do something with that too, if I can figure out something good.

American expansion in the Pacific might be good to look at too, if we haven't covered it all already.

And there's definitely an audience for work on Canada and Quebec. (Maybe we can get a few of those folks involved.)

 

[Mettermrck]

USA: Met has events done/in mind for monetary issues. We should finish the Phillippine Insurrection events (though that may be nothing more than adding the proper U03 code for PHI to the commands in the present events and sending them to The General). What else should we look at?

Well, for the US, the events are tilted heavily in favor of the antebellum and Civil War periods. After that, there are fewer events written, simply because we hadn't gotten to them yet. I haven't done the kinds of flavor events for 1866-1920 that I did for 1836-1864. I still have a few projects for the US that I'd like to get done. Complete the monetary events, do the transcontinental railroad, flesh out an awfully difficult and painful bypass of the Civil War, more flavor events, women's suffrage, temperance.

I understand that the US is event-heavy in comparison to other areas, so I can do some other stuff as well...maybe the HAI, DOM, and CUB flavor events you're thinking of, aprof.

 

[Theodotus1]

Well, for the US, the events are tilted heavily in favor of the antebellum and Civil War periods. After that, there are fewer events written, simply because we hadn't gotten to them yet. I haven't done the kinds of flavor events for 1866-1920 that I did for 1836-1864. I still have a few projects for the US that I'd like to get done. Complete the monetary events, do the transcontinental railroad, flesh out an awfully difficult and painful bypass of the Civil War, more flavor events, women's suffrage, temperance.

I understand that the US is event-heavy in comparison to other areas, so I can do some other stuff as well...maybe the HAI, DOM, and CUB flavor events you're thinking of, aprof.

I think North America is event heavy only because we've been a bit more enthusiastic to date. (The SA Group has been fired up, too, as have some others.)

Fleshing out the US after the war (and especially the bypass of the ACW) would be very good, I think.

I expect all will get addressed. It's just a matter of time and effort, so it will necessarily be somewhat incremental.

EDIT: One thing I do think we all should do first, though, is playtest what we've already got and work out any kinks as quickly as possible. There may be gremlins in there we haven't discovered yet.

EDIT: I've seen some instances of folks who have historical information about a place that they'd like included, but who don't feel comfortable with writing events. One way work could possibly be organized (to some extent) would be for such people to provide as much detailed information as possible, while others write that information into events. We've done some of this already, and this might be a way to approach countries that we're not already greatly familiar with. (Rather than doing all the research and writing both, which could be expected to be slower.)

 

[aprof]

EDIT: One thing I do think we all should do first, though, is playtest what we've already got and work out any kinks as quickly as possible. There may be gremlins in there we haven't discovered yet.

Here's a gremlin, as Mexico, I got four Santa fe events fire at once - "expedition splits up," "expedition advances," "expedition sticks together" and one other. Perhaps we need to add a trigger = { event = 213xxx/272xxx } (and maybe some sleepevent commands?) to have an event only fire after a previous one?

EDIT: I've seen some instances of folks who have historical information about a place that they'd like included, but who don't feel comfortable with writing events. One way work could possibly be organized (to some extent) would be for such people to provide as much detailed information as possible, while others write that information into events. We've done some of this already, and this might be a way to approach countries that we're not already greatly familiar with. (Rather than doing all the research and writing both, which could be expected to be slower.)

Perhaps we should encourage people in the GD to come and offer suggestions and comments about events?

 

[Theodotus1]

Here's a gremlin, as Mexico, I got four Santa fe events fire at once - "expedition splits up," "expedition advances," "expedition sticks together" and one other. Perhaps we need to add a trigger = { event = 213xxx/272xxx } (and maybe some sleepevent commands?) to have an event only fire after a previous one?

Ouch. (I guess I still haven't manage to perfect my editing of triggers on those events. I thought I had that solved.)

I'll look at that tonight, when I get back from my danged seminar on mechanic's liens. In the meantime, I'll post this on the bug thread.

EDIT: Just looked at this event tree, and see the problem. Need to add some sleepevent commands. Will be done tonight. Then I'll post tweaked event files on Yahoo as temporary fixes.

 

[Niptium]

And there's definitely an audience for work on Canada and Quebec. (Maybe we can get a few of those folks involved.)

There is definitely a crowd to please whle working on Québec. This revolter gravely needs events. I will talk to some Québec moderators, I will try to get them involved.

For the pop. changes I'm still waiting for the Generalissimo POP patch.

 

[Theodotus1]

There is definitely a crowd to please whle working on Québec. This revolter gravely needs events. I will talk to some Québec moderators, I will try to get them involved.

For the pop. changes I'm still waiting for the Generalissimo POP patch.

I think those changes are in VIP 0.1. Look at the POPs in 0.1 and see what more is needed.

Quebec is definitely a place that should get attention. Information regarding its history, and turning points as you and others concerned perceive them, would be most useful.

 

[aprof]

And this isn't a bug, but it does seem "wrong".

I will get the San Jacinto event without having yet suffered a defeat in battle as Mexico against Texas. That would seem to be a prereq - though I don't know how to insure that as there's no 'lostbattle' trigger.

When 'San Jacinto' pops up, I immediately think how artificial it seems - especially when there is no battle going on at the time.

Maybe we need to lobby Johan for such a trigger for events. There must be a way, as the 'defeated in battle' pop-up must be triggered by something. EDIT: Generalisimo, is this something you should do? Is it useful for other nations as well? (It would seem that it would help a Franco-Prussian War -an "Emperor Napolean Captured by the Prussians" event?)

 

[aprof]

There is definitely a crowd to please whle working on Québec. This revolter gravely needs events. I will talk to some Québec moderators, I will try to get them involved.

For the pop. changes I'm still waiting for the Generalissimo POP patch.

I'd love to have more events for Canada. As Theo says, if people don't have the time or don't feel comfortable with event writing, then just give us the history site to check, or a suggestion of an event and we'll work it up.

 

[Theodotus1]

And this isn't a bug, but it does seem "wrong".

I will get the San Jacinto event without having yet suffered a defeat in battle as Mexico against Texas. That would seem to be a prereq - though I don't know how to insure that as there's no 'lostbattle' trigger.

When 'San Jacinto' pops up, I immediately think how artificial it seems - especially when there is no battle going on at the time.

Maybe we need to lobby Johan for such a trigger for events. There must be a way, as the 'defeated in battle' pop-up must be triggered by something.

I've pondered this, and keep pondering it, but haven't hit on a good approach yet. (The AI doesn't invade Texas as fast as Santa Anna did, for one thing.) If there was a "lostbattle" trigger I'd have explored that, alas.

In the Santa Anna events I'm working on I've reset the date of the SJ event to 4/21/36 (if I recall correctly), which is the actual date. I'm still not satisfied with that, but I'm at a bit of a loss as to what would work better. (Maybe something regarding control of provinces?) Any thoughts would be appreciated, of course. (We can tweak this as time goes along.)

 

[Mettermrck]

EDIT: One thing I do think we all should do first, though, is playtest what we've already got and work out any kinks as quickly as possible. There may be gremlins in there we haven't discovered yet.

Yes. Thus far I've been running a game up towards the Civil War, and I'm really enjoying it. It's not just the usual save money, build factory, save money, build railroad. There's the epidemics, the financial Panics, a new situation with Texas. All in all, I think the antebellum US experience is very thorough. Especially with the slow and steady buildup of events leading to the Civil War. So far, the only things I've noticed have been a few grammar errors I have in some of my events, which I can correct whenever 0.2 looms close.

It's a little easier for me to test because I'm familiar with the events and I know which way they should or do run. What I'm anxious for are the first reports from others, who aren't forewarned of what's coming and see what their experience was.

 

[Niptium]

I'd love to have more events for Canada. As Theo says, if people don't have the time or don't feel comfortable with event writing, then just give us the history site to check, or a suggestion of an event and we'll work it up.

Yes, I wrote on the French forum, in the Victoria section, about it. This crowd will sure come in handy.

 

[aprof]

Yes. Thus far I've been running a game up towards the Civil War, and I'm really enjoying it. It's not just the usual save money, build factory, save money, build railroad. There's the epidemics, the financial Panics, a new situation with Texas. All in all, I think the antebellum US experience is very thorough. Especially with the slow and steady buildup of events leading to the Civil War. So far, the only things I've noticed have been a few grammar errors I have in some of my events, which I can correct whenever 0.2 looms close.

It's a little easier for me to test because I'm familiar with the events and I know which way they should or do run. What I'm anxious for are the first reports from others, who aren't forewarned of what's coming and see what their experience was.

Yes, I'm playing and replaying Mexico games, in both 1836 and 1861 (using just our files). (That works nicely for testing, me = MEX, Theo = TEX, you = USA, Niptium = CAN Aragos = USA/CSA once he has free time from protecting our nation < )

I suspect we'll all want to make some tweaks for 0.2.

EDIT: BTW: How's the weather in SC, Met. Snowed in again?

 

[unmerged(1047)]

I know I feel more comfy just providing information - I got heavily into modding in EU2, and there's significant differences in the event language, and I haven't worked them all out in my head yet.

That said - I've got multiple California history books on my shelf, being that I am a history teacher in that state....

 

[Mettermrck]

EDIT: BTW: How's the weather in SC, Met. Snowed in again?

We're at the limit between rain and snow, so there was a lot of ice and slush where I'm at this morning. At least the power hasn't gone out yet. *crosses fingers*