Knock yourself out.bassadoram said:
I can't say if we will never touch the tags but in the near future I don't see it.
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I can't say if we will never touch the tags but in the near future I don't see it.
Plot for Late Tokugawa Shogunate Period
this is the plot for late Tokugawa shogunate period.
Restoration of Imperial Rule
(japan civilized)
Session at Imperial Court
a. (anti-tokugawa royalists rule the session) > Boshin War
-Shogunate Tokugawa separated
b. (pro-tokugawa regentists rule the session) > Toyoshige Yamanouchi Assasinated
Toyoshige Yamanouchi Assasinated
(revolts in Satsuma, Hagi and Kyoto)
(raising militancy)
Boshin War
(trigger for Royal Vexillum Given to Meiji Government)
Royal Vexillum Given to Meiji Government
-Hokuriku Surrenders to Meiji Government
-Kinki Surrenders to Meiji Government
-Chugoku Surrenders to Meiji Government
-Shikoku Surrenders to Meiji Government
Negotiation over Edo Capitulation
(triggered by occupation of kanagawa by meiji japan)
(move capital to fukushima) > trigger for Pro-Shogunate Fief Formed Northern Alliance against Meiji Government
Pro-Shogunate Fief Formed Northern Alliance against Meiji Government
Fall of Northern Alliance
(triggered by occupation of niigata and fukushima by meiji japan)
Hakodate Government Established
Fort Goryoukaku Surrendered
(triggered by occupation of hakodate)
----
[European Intervention] nation in [] stands for target of the event.
[shogunate] Russia Offered for Protection
a. (accept the offer) > Russian Action for Japan
b. (refuse the offer)
[RUS] Russian Action for Japan
a. (Give Protection) > alliance with shogunate, trigger for UK reaction
b. (Drop the matter) > no effect
[ENG] British Reaction for Russian Influence in Japan
a. (Let Russian Have Influence over Shogunate Japan) > Peace Deal with Hakodate Government
b. (Threaten with war) > alliance with meiji government
[shogunate] Peace Deal with Hakodate Government
(Let Hakodate Government Rule in Hokkaido) > peace with shogunate, trigger for RUS vassalizing
[RUS] Russia vassalized Japan
(Hakodate Government is under Our Influence)
this is the plot for late Tokugawa shogunate period.
Restoration of Imperial Rule
(japan civilized)
Session at Imperial Court
a. (anti-tokugawa royalists rule the session) > Boshin War
-Shogunate Tokugawa separated
b. (pro-tokugawa regentists rule the session) > Toyoshige Yamanouchi Assasinated
Toyoshige Yamanouchi Assasinated
(revolts in Satsuma, Hagi and Kyoto)
(raising militancy)
Boshin War
(trigger for Royal Vexillum Given to Meiji Government)
Royal Vexillum Given to Meiji Government
-Hokuriku Surrenders to Meiji Government
-Kinki Surrenders to Meiji Government
-Chugoku Surrenders to Meiji Government
-Shikoku Surrenders to Meiji Government
Negotiation over Edo Capitulation
(triggered by occupation of kanagawa by meiji japan)
(move capital to fukushima) > trigger for Pro-Shogunate Fief Formed Northern Alliance against Meiji Government
Pro-Shogunate Fief Formed Northern Alliance against Meiji Government
Fall of Northern Alliance
(triggered by occupation of niigata and fukushima by meiji japan)
Hakodate Government Established
Fort Goryoukaku Surrendered
(triggered by occupation of hakodate)
----
[European Intervention] nation in [] stands for target of the event.
[shogunate] Russia Offered for Protection
a. (accept the offer) > Russian Action for Japan
b. (refuse the offer)
[RUS] Russian Action for Japan
a. (Give Protection) > alliance with shogunate, trigger for UK reaction
b. (Drop the matter) > no effect
[ENG] British Reaction for Russian Influence in Japan
a. (Let Russian Have Influence over Shogunate Japan) > Peace Deal with Hakodate Government
b. (Threaten with war) > alliance with meiji government
[shogunate] Peace Deal with Hakodate Government
(Let Hakodate Government Rule in Hokkaido) > peace with shogunate, trigger for RUS vassalizing
[RUS] Russia vassalized Japan
(Hakodate Government is under Our Influence)
bassadoram said:
follow up for my project.
let me follow up my project.
i started the project because there is no events covering bloody incidents in late tokugawa period. in the other word, it is the easiest unciv nation to play.
the reason why i started with boshin war is because it's the hardest part in the project, which we have to deal with the question; what is NIP tag refering to?
after a long argument with a bunch of people, i settled that NIP should stay with history. it means NIP stands for tokugawa shogunate until the event "restoration of imperial rule." then as we go with history, NIP sustains meiji government when tokugawa shogunate separates from NIP.
beyond the point, it gets complicated, so i'd like to wait your questions.
let me follow up my project.
i started the project because there is no events covering bloody incidents in late tokugawa period. in the other word, it is the easiest unciv nation to play.
the reason why i started with boshin war is because it's the hardest part in the project, which we have to deal with the question; what is NIP tag refering to?
after a long argument with a bunch of people, i settled that NIP should stay with history. it means NIP stands for tokugawa shogunate until the event "restoration of imperial rule." then as we go with history, NIP sustains meiji government when tokugawa shogunate separates from NIP.
beyond the point, it gets complicated, so i'd like to wait your questions.
It would be historically accurate (but gameplaywise less balanced) for China to start with paper factories in Anhui (or such) and other industries... Has this been discussed before?
mib said:
Yes it has. I argued for China to have the Paper techs at start, but it proved to be too unbalancing, It just became far too easy for china to civilize and become a huge monster in game, nearly unstoppable even when AI run. I don't think we can give them the factories with out the tech, otherwise that coud be a viable solution.
I think that the problem in Victoria, apart from what JRaup already explained to you, is that you must consider if the factories that you are suggesting were used in that time to trade with the entire world. Did China commerced that "paper" with the entire world? Did they have open trade routes to commerce those goods?mib said:
(i am NOT an expert on China matters as you can see
).
Generalisimo said:I think that the problem in Victoria, apart from what JRaup already explained to you, is that you must consider if the factories that you are suggesting were used in that time to trade with the entire world. Did China commerced that "paper" with the entire world? Did they have open trade routes to commerce those goods?
(i am NOT an expert on China matters as you can see
In part yes, thought not directly. Some was traded to neighbors, which was then traded to their neighbors, etc. There was no global market for Chinese paper per se, more of a pass it along type deal. No, I don;t think we can give China those factories, unless there are changes in 1.04 which will make it possible,
Well, Japan starts with some glass factories I believe, and a liquor one. How did you guys prevent Japan from becoming unbalanced? Maybe we can use the same system for China?
Or... we can just give China dirt-low prestige (like -500 something) to prevent them from getting MPs and other materials from the WM? Maybe a RP penalty should be instituted as well.
Or... we can just give China dirt-low prestige (like -500 something) to prevent them from getting MPs and other materials from the WM? Maybe a RP penalty should be instituted as well.
Uncivs gets almost no tax income.
But they get a lot of money from tairiffs. I think the previous version of VIP had changed China's tairiffs efficency but I'm not sure I recall correctly.
But they get a lot of money from tairiffs. I think the previous version of VIP had changed China's tairiffs efficency but I'm not sure I recall correctly.
mib said:
Well, in part it's a matter of intent. The idea is to make it so that Japan can civilize "on time," more or less about the time of the Meiji Restoration. China on the other hand, isn't supposed to become civilized, and instead "devolve" into the fractured state that followed the 1911 Revolution. Japan should be an emerging power by 1900, and brought up to a full power by 1918. So, Japan gets a bit of a helping hand in that regard.
Now I'm sure some things will again change with China as we progress, and as I finish up several things for China (Taiping is up first), which should slow down China significantly, which would allow for some other changes hopefully, like the paper factories.
VIP - Japanese Revolter For Meiji Restoration Civil War
i'd like to start a new thread for current project of late tokugawa period. and the main focus on this project is a civil war during the meiji restoration.
what i'm going to do in this thread is to open the source, examine and improve.
if you can make any contribution to the project, i'm very glad to have it.
i'd like to start a new thread for current project of late tokugawa period. and the main focus on this project is a civil war during the meiji restoration.
what i'm going to do in this thread is to open the source, examine and improve.
if you can make any contribution to the project, i'm very glad to have it.
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Will merge this in the next 24 hours with the East Asia thread. as this belongs under that general topic.
Has anyone considered an event tree for the first Opium war? Seems to me that it only kicked off due to a lot of bad luck on China's part. Here are my suggestions:
(1) The Emperor (player) is given a choice, (a) Increase the penalty for Opium use to death, (b) Enforce the Ban or (c) legalise the trade. In the Event of choice (c), there would be no events with deteriorating relationships with the UK, and no subsequent Opium war, though later there may be some other war over trade.
(2) if the player chooses (a) or (b), then the decision on who to send (as in vanilla fires.
(3) When the Chinese Commissioner arrives at canton, if the Emporer chose (a) in 1 above, the Uk gets a choice of (a) we will not be subject to Chinese Law or (b) submit to Chinese Law (-ve prestige). If the chinese chose (b) in (1) then I would assume that Captain Elliot feels no need to intervene in china's enforcing the status quo, and the UK would not be forced to recognise the Opium trade as legitimate. (Other's may disagree).
(4) Finally, after all of these events, If Lin Zexu was sent in (2) then Lin Zexu's letter should arrive in the UK and they should be given the choice (a)
bury the letter (b) pass the letter to Queen Victoria or (c) publish the letter.
If (b) is chosen, no War will occur and the UK will cease trading Opium (convert the Opium RGOs in BEIC to something else - cotton or tea perhaps?)
also relationshps between UK and China improve (+50) and UK gains small prestige boost for eliminating this trade.
If (c) is chosen, no war will occur, and again the UK will cease trading (as in (b)) but there is no boost to relations and MIL for some ranom POP's in the UK increases by 1 (the peole don't like being reminded of this sordid trade)
Note that there are profound implications for China if there is no first Opium war, as one of the consequences was the permitting of Missionaries in China which led to the Taiping rebellion. Undoubtedly, there would have been rebellion anyway, but it would not have had the same characteristcs (just being an ordinary, if extremely large, rebellion).
However, at some point China may have objected to the coolie trade (read slave trade), and the whole thing would have started all over again...
(1) The Emperor (player) is given a choice, (a) Increase the penalty for Opium use to death, (b) Enforce the Ban or (c) legalise the trade. In the Event of choice (c), there would be no events with deteriorating relationships with the UK, and no subsequent Opium war, though later there may be some other war over trade.
(2) if the player chooses (a) or (b), then the decision on who to send (as in vanilla fires.
(3) When the Chinese Commissioner arrives at canton, if the Emporer chose (a) in 1 above, the Uk gets a choice of (a) we will not be subject to Chinese Law or (b) submit to Chinese Law (-ve prestige). If the chinese chose (b) in (1) then I would assume that Captain Elliot feels no need to intervene in china's enforcing the status quo, and the UK would not be forced to recognise the Opium trade as legitimate. (Other's may disagree).
(4) Finally, after all of these events, If Lin Zexu was sent in (2) then Lin Zexu's letter should arrive in the UK and they should be given the choice (a)
bury the letter (b) pass the letter to Queen Victoria or (c) publish the letter.
If (b) is chosen, no War will occur and the UK will cease trading Opium (convert the Opium RGOs in BEIC to something else - cotton or tea perhaps?)
also relationshps between UK and China improve (+50) and UK gains small prestige boost for eliminating this trade.
If (c) is chosen, no war will occur, and again the UK will cease trading (as in (b)) but there is no boost to relations and MIL for some ranom POP's in the UK increases by 1 (the peole don't like being reminded of this sordid trade)
Note that there are profound implications for China if there is no first Opium war, as one of the consequences was the permitting of Missionaries in China which led to the Taiping rebellion. Undoubtedly, there would have been rebellion anyway, but it would not have had the same characteristcs (just being an ordinary, if extremely large, rebellion).
However, at some point China may have objected to the coolie trade (read slave trade), and the whole thing would have started all over again...
Is there an event for Taiping China to become civilized under certain circumstances. It was very close to being recognised by Western powers at one stage, and if they could have given certain concessions and the second Opium war has not been won by European powers, then some form of recognition would have been inevitable (as well as assistance), and the Taiping Prime Minister Hong Rengan (Prince Gan) was very pro-western. I would suggest that an event c. 1853 (after Nanking is captured) to choose a successor fires, (a) Hong Xiuquan chooses Hong Tianguifu or (b) he chooses Hong Rengan. if (b), then whenever Taiping controls Shanghai, there should be an event for Taiping to accept (or reject) Foreign Missionary advisors which give -ve prestige but will lead to Prince Gans reforms, improving the Bureaucracy (certain commerce Techs?), and after a period of time if the Arrow war had not been won by Europe, formal recognition of Taiping China (civilization status for Taiping China, with several basic Techs) will follow.
After that, the Shanghai Foreign Arms Corps Event could fire for Taiping (instead of for the Historical Qing) which would lead to the formation of the Ever Victorious Army for Taiping, although Taiping would not limit the numbers as the Qing did (they would have no objections to Townsend Ward acting in an un-confucian manner!).
After that, the Shanghai Foreign Arms Corps Event could fire for Taiping (instead of for the Historical Qing) which would lead to the formation of the Ever Victorious Army for Taiping, although Taiping would not limit the numbers as the Qing did (they would have no objections to Townsend Ward acting in an un-confucian manner!).
Gavmania said:
I hadn't thought much about expandng the 1st opium war chain, as all the key points are covered already. These can all be coded fairly easilly, as they don't differ that much from the existing events. The one thing that will have to be done is control the ahistorical choices by the AI, setting each ahistorical option to less than 5%, or we will almost never see a historical progression.
A note about the Taiping here, Hong Xiuquan converted to Christianity before the the 1st Opium war. Missionaries were in china before the war, but not in the same numbers, or in the interior, as afterwards. The Taiping would still happen, just with out the same numbers of converts as historically happened.
The Coolie trade could be a later flash point issue, but that will take some development to get right in the abscence of no Opium Wars.
Gavmania said:
This is partly covered by what I've got scripted so far. There is a chance for European recognition of the Taiping, but it's failry slim. The main effort of the Europeans will be to sit back, with some unofficial actions. There's a bit of a split mind in European attitudes towards the Taiping. On the one had, they were in theory, Christian (a unique brand to be sure), and a Christian China would be a wonderful thing. On the other hand, and perhaps more importantly, the Taiping were bad for business. Not only did they repress the Opium trade, the siezed property for "the common good." Further more, they did not recognize European holdings in China. It's what scared the European section of Shanghai, and led them to form "defense committees," and support the Qing forces. This then led to the hiring of Ward and other advisors, the formation of the Ever Victorious Army, the death of Ward, and the eventual hiring of Charles Gordon.
Now, in addition, was the fact that the missionaries, who at first supported the Taiping, turned against them, just about the time Nanjing fell. I may at some point rework this bit to allow for continued missionary support, but right now, they will turn against the Taiping, and report so to the European powers.
As for civilizing, well, nothing specific for the Taiping. There is a chance they will get allied with Britain/France, but beyond that, nothing like what you're proposing. Perhaps if the Taiping defeat the Qing (a real possibility), and depending on who's running the Taiping, perhaps there will be more European support. Other than that, I just don't see it happening.
JRaup said:
Not true, and here I quote from "Protestant Missionaries and the Taiping Rebellion":
"Although the Taipings had been waging war on the Qing in southwest China since 1850, the rebellion only captured the attention of missionaries and other Westerners when the rebels swept down the Yangzi River towards the coast in early 1853."
The article goes on to explain that initial Euphoria at "an army of one hundred thousand to two million Christians" gave way to some misgivings, but on the whole, though it wavered, support for them held firm. To quote again:
"After the spring of 1854, the flood of new intelligence about the Taipings slowed to a trickle. The rebels had become bogged down in savage internal power struggles while still engaged in a battle to repulse a prolonged Qing encroachment...Despite these limitations, the missionaries developed an image of the rebellion that was far more complicated than the one they held in 1854. Those who continued to support the rebellion employed many defenses to rationalize new Taiping defects...
...The period of reduced contact between the Taipings and the missionaries ended suddenly in 1860 when the Taipings launched their eastern campaign,, capturing the city of Suzhou...and approaching Shanghai...the missionary community had much to be happy about...the Taipings had, under the direction of second-in-command Hong Ren'gan, inaugurated a more open and friendly policy toward foreigners."
As you can see, support for the Taipings existed right up to November 1860. For many of the missionaries, it was by turning a blind eye to the rebels excesses, dismissing the blasphemous pronunciations of Hong Xiuquan as a result of poor understanding of Christianity (to be corrected) and focussing on the fact that these were supposedly Christians. On November 30th 1860, an anonymous letter appeared in the North China Herald by "one of the Missionaries in China" that said that the missionaries in China were no friends to a religious teacher who mistook the "dreams of a man sick with brain-fever for 'heavenly visions," etc. by 1864 nearly every missionary had adopted the opinions of this anonymous author.
It is my contention that, had the missionaries been able to engage with the Taipings earlier, they would have been able to correct many of their errors before they became "set in stone". They also would have provided a much needed middle class used to bureaucracy & organising things: the taipings suffered from an inability to recruit educated people able to run a state (most of those they met from the either ran away or were killed by vengeful peasants). They started in 1851 as a highly organised religious army, but by 1860 they had mostly become a peasant mob. this hampered their ability to e.g. raise taxes (though anyone joining their organisation had to give up all property to the Taipings - not a problem for a destitute peasant). This became a serious problem as the war continued, and was one of the causes of their downfall.
It seems to me also, that had Hong Rangen met the missionaries earlier, and continued their dialogue long enough, they would have begun to organise in support of him. The missionaries until 1860 wanted to believe that the Taiping were the good guys, and if Hong Rangen had been able to effect certain reforms (which may possibly have included the disposal of Hong Xiuquan) to move in their direction, they probably would have come out in wholehearted support for them, dragging the Western powers with them. This form of recognition would have meant that Taiping China was recognised as civilized. Granted the possibility of this should be small for the AI, but as a player I would love to play this out & see where it leads.
JRaup said:
The Western powers were concerned about trade: if they could have wrung concessions out of the Taipings, they probably would have supported them. In the event, they wrung concessions out of the Qing before they startef a dialogue with the Taipings.
As for the Opium trade, remember that it sprung up initially because the Qing refused to accept anything but silver from the western powers, and silver was becoming more scarce. Had the western powers been able to trade anything they wished (within reason), they may have been willing to concede to a ban on Opium (though I can imagine a few Western traders being very unhappy). remember that an opium ban was in force in the Uk at this time (I do not know about the other countries), so they were not opposed to the idea at the government level. Even the First Opium war occurred because captain Elliot felt that he had been backed into a corner and forced to recognise the Opium trade in negotiating with the Chinese. That does not mean that the Opium trade would not continue, but I think it would be much diminished.
Sorry for the long post.
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