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Which candidates should VIP assign the last three open tags for (choose 3)

  • Japanese Revolter

    Votes: 82 51,3%
  • Yucatan Revolter

    Votes: 70 43,8%
  • Newfoundland

    Votes: 45 28,1%
  • One Additional African Native State

    Votes: 27 16,9%
  • Iraq/Mesopotamia Revolter

    Votes: 71 44,4%
  • Ryukyu Islands

    Votes: 21 13,1%
  • An Independent State In The South Pacific

    Votes: 19 11,9%
  • Kurdistan Revolter

    Votes: 65 40,6%
  • One Additional Native American State In North America

    Votes: 18 11,3%
  • Czechoslovakia Revolter

    Votes: 43 26,9%

  • Total voters
    160
  • Poll closed .
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unmerged(10262)

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Originally posted by Jeno
As for Bzyantium...if there was a slight possibility of it happening, then it ought to be in...BUT...it should be EXTREMELY hard to acheive. i.e. - perhaps after you've already smacked the Ottomans around once and have smacked the other Balkan states around some, then you'll have a chance to go to war and claim Byzantium. However, doing so should cost you a lot, especially in relations to the west and Russia (and Austria?) aswell.

It should be hard to do, and if done it should have very powerfull consequences, but if it were possible irl, then it ought to be here too.

I suppose calling yourself Byzantium or Greece is only a difference in ambitions, I see no reason why a Greece who had conquered Konstantinopel could call itself Byzantium. Don’t now if it should have very dramatic consequences at all, perhaps a few more claims and some shift towards conservatism. And BTW you can’t get Konstantinopel without annexing entire Ottoman Empire right? And if you had conquered that much you really should be able to call yourself Byzantium.
 

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Hmm.. a few more african nations maybe could be intresting?
The continent wasn´t so empty of nations like the Vic map shows.
 

Guinnessmonkey

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Originally posted by Jeno
As for Bzyantium...if there was a slight possibility of it happening, then it ought to be in...BUT...it should be EXTREMELY hard to acheive. i.e. - perhaps after you've already smacked the Ottomans around once and have smacked the other Balkan states around some, then you'll have a chance to go to war and claim Byzantium. However, doing so should cost you a lot, especially in relations to the west and Russia (and Austria?) aswell.

It should be hard to do, and if done it should have very powerfull consequences, but if it were possible irl, then it ought to be here too.

As far as I'm concerned, any claim to "Byzantium" was quite silly.

We should, at most, have events for Greece, Bulgaria, etc. that let they claim the title of Byzantium. It shouldn't change the tags. Just because the King of Greece starts calling himself Emperor of the Romans doesn't mean the London Times is going to start calling the nation Byzantium. Hell, half of Europe called it the Empire of the Greeks in EU2 times. I just don't see a Byzantium being even vaguely historical. It might be fun but let's not call it historical, shall we? :p

That's why, IMHO, a Byzantium tag should be held off until the historical revolters are all settled...
 
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Originally posted by Fireblade
Why should there be a Carlist Spain? Just write an event.

We could just write an event for the ACW too, I suppose. :D

Again, I'll have to argue for a tag for Bengal, since there is no native state Bengali state in the game. If Mutiny went another way, I don't think it'd be that unlikely for an indigenous state to be created in the region.

I agree. The Indian mutiny, as it happened, was not terribly organised, but it did congeal nicely...it is a necessity.

Looking at the list I think it is safe to say that sub-Saharan Africa has received the short end of the stick - we have tiny micropolities like Lucca and Saxe-Weimar included but Sokoto (ruler all of what is now Northern Nigeria), the Tukulor State (what is now E Senegal, E Guinea and W Mali), the Malagasy Kingdom on Madagascar, Ashanti (modern Ghana), the Mahdist State in Sudan are all apparently left out, and that just scratches the surface. I had hoped Paradox would have created more than 20 user defined nations, but alas it didn't happen. I think Africa really needs another look - it should not be a blank slate that European (or other) powers can simply walk into completely unopposed. That was not how the Scramble developed historically and is not an accurate portrayal of the reality of the Scramble for Africa for the peoples of Africa.

I know that Sokoto is in - the Mexican AAR sees a huge war against it.

There is a Madagascar tag in the game already - the tag is HOW for reasons I can't wrap my brain around.

The others, though - Ashanti, the Sudan, and the Tukulor state - aren't, unless I'm missing something. So, try this on for size:

Code:
U00          Byzantine Empire
U01          Lakota
U02          Carlist Spain
U03          Euskadia
U04          Confederation of Ecuador
U05          Rio-Grande Republic
U06          Turkey
U07          Azerbaijan
U08          Syria
U09          Kdm. of the Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes
U10          Midwestern Confederacy
U11          Heavenly Kingdom of Taiping
U12          Republic of the Yucatan
U13          Paris Commune
U14          Bengal
U15          Ashanti
U16          Sudan
U17          Tukulor Empire

We really, really don't need to start pulling things out until we have more than 20 ideas on the list. Right now we still have two empty tags, and there are a number in the above list that are more than debatable anyway.

And is there a verdict on that MIN tag? Is it usable


(edit: dammit guys... Put color tags around your CODE areas... Otherwise it's unreadable... Color will always make it normal text color (white), so it's always good idea. :) - GM)
 
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Jayavarman

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To keep it non-partisan, tags should be handed out by the moderator, Guinnessmonkey.:)
 

Grosshaus

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Seconded. I also think we should wait at least a couple of weeks before he makes his dictatorial ruling. Just to avoid trouble later on if a wrong choice has been made. After all most of people don't even have the game yet, and nobody, except for betas, has played it more than a couple of days. It takes a bit of playing to have an analyzed opinion of what is truly needed.
 

Guinnessmonkey

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Ok...

(*quickly refuses the crown three times, than accepts*

As long as there are no objections I will assume this dictatorial power, though with hesitation.

AFAIK there are almost no tags handed out yet.

The only ones I'm sure on are the two or three historical nations that got left out (Mongolia, Sudan, Champassak)

After that I will only hand out tags after it becomes apparent that something is needed (i.e. a region that often revolts and is rebel controlled for a long time but can never declare independence)

For the truly creative ahistoricals: they will have to wait for now. Let's make sure that historical tags are covered first. :)

Historical Tags right now:
Mongolia
Sudan
Philippines
Champassak

Pseudo-Historical:
Dakota/Lakota/Sioux Nation (they can "revolt" a lot in Vicky but don't have a way to win... If Montana is rebel controlled for a few years it should become independent.... This one is still up for massive debate.)
 
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aprof

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Originally posted by Guinnessmonkey
Ok...

(*quickly refuses the crown three times, then accepts*

So does this make me the Kingmaker? :D (Hmmm. Maybe it is a good thing to take your time and edit your post before hitting 'Submit Reply')

I agree that a decision on a final list shouldn't be made for a few weeks yet.
 

OHgamer

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I missed the Madagascar and Sokoto tags (looking at that list is liable to make anyone crosseyed!). Looking again closely this is what I come up with for African states (if I missed any I apologize!)

ALD - Aldjazair Algeria - assuming this represents the Arab resistance to French control estabished at Algiers in 1830
EGY - Egypt
ETH - Ethiopia
HOW - Madagascar
LIB - Liberia
MOR - Morocco
ORA - Oranje Orange Free State in southern Africa??
SOK - Sokoto
TRI - Tripoli
TRN - Transvaal
TUN - Tunis
ZUL - Zulu

Adding Ashante, Mahdist Sudan and Tukulor would be good.

Also I'd recommend adding

1) Zanzibar - in this period the Zanzibar sultans were recognized as overlords by most of the peoples of what is now coastal Kenya and Tanzania and in the 1870s would be recognized as overlords by Tippu Tip in the Upper Congo region. Zanzibar was the focus of intense rivalry between the British, French and Germans in the 1870s and 1880s because of this, and Zanzibar was considered the "key" to establishing European domination in East Africa.

2) Buganda - powerful state in what is now Uganda that controlled the rich agricultural land around Lake Victoria Nyanza, including lands in Kenya up to the Great Rift Valley. Strong enough to keep the British from allowing white settlement in a region the British themselves called "The Pearl Of Africa."

3) Borno - Islamic state that dominated the region between around Lake Chad - powerful due to wealth as trade route between sub-Saharan Africa and the Libyan coast. Would offer French stubborn resistance in late 19th Century.

4) Mande - rose in the 1860s to the south of Tukulor and would challenge Tukulor for dominance of the gold region of what is now E Guinea. Developed smelting technology to copy Western guns and would fight the French for over a decade under the leadership of Samori, extending Mande rule over the N Ivory Coast before final defeat.

5) Lozi - powerful kingdom that dominated the rich agricultural lands of the upper Zambezi valley (Eastern Angola and Western Zambia) that would become an ally of Cecil Rhodes in his struggle with the Ndebele for control of what is now Zimbabwe.

6) Ndebele - migrants from eastern South Africa driven out by the Zulu who would establish themselves in what is now Zimbabwe and give Rhodes and the British South Africa Company all sorts of trouble in the 1890s.

The greatest problem, as I have said above, is that we only have 20 user defined tags with which to deal with all of the indigenous nations of the Americas, Africa and Australasia not in the game as well as actual or potential nations that could be created in Europe, Asia and North America, not to mention those indigenous states that rise in Africa and the Americas during the time period of the game. Paradox seems to have done an admirable job with its research on South and Southeast Asia, it is too bad they were unable to access specialists on sub-Saharan Africa or the Americas to give the same kind of detail as given to Asia. As a result much of Africa is blank (kinda like those European maps of Africa in the 1830s and 1840s) rather than reflecting the great diversity of peoples and states that existed in the nineteenth century. Is there any way Paradox can increase the number of user defined tags beyond 20 in an upcoming patch?

As for the potential of the Europeans not being able to crush local resistance, one would assume that the tech tree would give the European powers complete advantages, though even technology could not save a European army against indigenous peoples all the time (Zulu defeat of British as Isandhlwana 1879, Samori's dogged resistance against the French in West Africa in the 1890s, Ethiopia's defeat of the Italians at Adowa in 1896). So the creation of these larger indigenous nations should not inhibit the replication of the Scramble for Africa, but rather make it more realistic by simulating the actuality of African resistance to European colonization, just as the creations of indigenous North American states will make American expansion into the West more historically accurate. From the posts on here that I have seen colonizing powers can just walk into "Terra Incognitas" with nary a shot fired, which is so completely historically inaccurate.
 
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Originally posted by Phillip V
To keep it non-partisan, tags should be handed out by the moderator, Guinnessmonkey.:)

Damn I got counter-couped :D

Eh. I'm happy as long as the Basques get a revolter. I'd be happier if there were Carlists.

At any rate, I definitely think that the biggest lack of taggage is in Africa. Ashanti, Dahomey, Tukulor tags...then the Sudan which puzzles me why they didn't put it in the first place. I guess they didn't watch the Four Feathers in Sweden.
 

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Guinessmonkey, the Rio Grande Republic was pretty historical. Independent from Brazil during ten years; if it has won the civil war (almost does), it could have radically changed entire story in South America.
 

aprof

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Originally posted by OHgamer
I missed the Madagascar and Sokoto tags (looking at that list is liable to make anyone crosseyed!). Looking again closely this is what I come up with for African states (if I missed any I apologize!)

ALD - Aldjazair Algeria - assuming this represents the Arab resistance to French control estabished at Algiers in 1830
EGY - Egypt
ETH - Ethiopia
HOW - Madagascar
LIB - Liberia
MOR - Morocco
ORA - Oranje Orange Free State in southern Africa??
SOK - Sokoto
TRI - Tripoli
TRN - Transvaal
TUN - Tunis
ZUL - Zulu


you're correct about Aldjazair and Oranje. Madagascar's TAG stands for 'Howa' if anyone is wondering.

1) Zanzibar - in this period the Zanzibar sultans were recognized as overlords by most of the peoples of what is now coastal Kenya and Tanzania and in the 1870s would be recognized as overlords by Tippu Tip in the Upper Congo region. Zanzibar was the focus of intense rivalry between the British, French and Germans in the 1870s and 1880s because of this, and Zanzibar was considered the "key" to establishing European domination in East Africa.

Zanzibar's influence is already in the GC just as you describe. However, it is reflected in its connection to Oman, by having Zanzibar controlled by Oman, and Omani colonial claims on those areas.
 

C.N.

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Originally posted by OHgamer
I missed the Madagascar and Sokoto tags (looking at that list is liable to make anyone crosseyed!). Looking again closely this is what I come up with for African states (if I missed any I apologize!)

ALD - Aldjazair Algeria - assuming this represents the Arab resistance to French control estabished at Algiers in 1830
EGY - Egypt
ETH - Ethiopia
HOW - Madagascar
LIB - Liberia
MOR - Morocco
ORA - Oranje Orange Free State in southern Africa??
SOK - Sokoto
TRI - Tripoli
TRN - Transvaal
TUN - Tunis
ZUL - Zulu


You missed at least this one:
NAL - Natalia
There might be more also.
 

Guinnessmonkey

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Zanzibar has a tag already. I see it go independent (granted by Oman) in the vast majority of GC games. :)

I also give tenative support to some or all of OHgamer's other African tags... I'd like to see a bit more research on them first, though...


Would all of those African tags be around from '36 to when they fell to Europeans? That should be the first hurdle, IMHO. That might (unless I'm reading it wrong) disqualify Ndebele...

Buganda - sounds good....

Borno - Perhaps... Could it be done just as well with revolting natives? Natives can "revolt" and destroy claim buildings, after all...

Mande - Also sounds good.

Lozi - sounds good as well...
 

Tunch Khan

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And what are you guys thinking on my previous suggestions about Turkey, Azerbaijan and Syria?
 

irishpony

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Wouldnt adding africe minors limi the extent of European expansion over these lands.

This could be circumvented by adding event that force the country into submission of the regional colonizer
 
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