VIP - Closed discussions of Old Versions

[Generalisimo]

To futher address the topic:

One thing about the railroad events for Texas is that they do retract the capitalist income increases via event some years later. Additionally, the capitalist income increases were not related to just building the railroad in a particular location, but to the economic incentives doled out in massive quantities by the government. The events simulate not just the building of the railroads, but large-scale redirection of economic variables in order to benefit a select segment of the population. (In Texas' case, the state gave away so much land that it later discovered it was short 8 million acres it still owed people. We are not talking about small change.)

When it comes to issues of balance -- frankly, it was unfortunate decisions regarding balance that gave a lot of impetus to this project in the first place. The decision not to include any sort of mechanism for something as fundamental to the course of events as the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, reportedly because it was felt to be imbalancing in multiplayer, is not a precedent we should seek to emulate. (By that same reasoning, they should have left out the German and Italian unification events, because those might be unfair to a player, too, and both places can conceivably be unified via conquest.) The beauty of the game is that its design is able to simulate complexities and imbalances, at least to some extent.

Beyond that, if balance were a paramount issue in Victoria then no uncivilized country would be banned from becoming civilized. This is not a game in which the countries were designed to be equal. Why then prohibit certain types of event effects simply because only one country is benefited? There is no logic to such an approach.

Balance does not require the prohibition of any particular effect. It does require supreme attention to the level of effect used.

EDIT: Upon looking at the General's post again, the thing that strikes me about the increases in the Texas events cited is not that there were increases, but that they added up to as much as they did. I'm going to tune them down by 80-90% where they're not removed -- because it's sufficient for most events that there be some relevant effect, but that effect doesn't have to be of any particular magnitude.

One thing that does come to mind, though -- inventions are themselves events. They are not a different type of game mechanic. Commands should not therefore be limited only to inventions just because they have been used with inventions (because Paradox did not so limit the events they wrote).

well, my claim about "Texas: +30 capitalists bonus" was based upon the entire file of texas events, there is a good chain for subsidies for the railroad that gives +10 bonus and then it takes it away... but there are also a lot that doesn't do that.
Take a look at my complete account and you will see that i have included the events that substracts bonuses...


About inventions, they are managed differently by the engine, they are not common events, if you look carefully, you will notice that they are "like" random events that can trigger only when they are activated by a tech.

 

[Mettermrck]

with "prestige gains" i meant that you can easilly make an event that says:
"Pepe Gonzalez invented the best chair of the world for 1850"
+10 eff. for furniture factories
into:
"Pepe Gonzalez invented the best chair of the world for 1850"
+2 prestige
do you see my point?

I agree with this, for I use prestige as an event tool a lot. It gives small help to countries, a slightly better presence on the market, without unbalancing things because typically other nations will gain prestige via events and war as well. I rarely go above 10, and frequently confine myself to 1 to 5. Same with research points. If you use smaller amounts, than you can justify more events.

 

[vladimir]

Dai Viet- (DAI) Northern Vietnam
Wiang Chan (VIE) Not sure, southern Vietnam I believe

Wiang Chan was another small Lao country.
Dai Viet was the early name of Vietnam before 1802.

 

[Theodotus1]

with "prestige gains" i meant that you can easilly make an event that says:
"Pepe Gonzalez invented the best chair of the world for 1850"
+10 eff. for furniture factories
into:
"Pepe Gonzalez invented the best chair of the world for 1850"
+2 prestige

do you see my point?

I do. And I agree almost all cases. But I do think that some historical events cannot be adequately simulated so simply. And I remain wary of prestige grants -- to the point were I usually limit them in events I write to only 1 point. (If we shift people too much to giving out prestige to mark events, it may well create balance problems of its own, because if we hand out too many prestige points too unevenly, we are skewing world standings in a similar way to giving out too much added production capacity, for example.) We as yet do not have a good guide to prestige point valuation, at least none of which I'm aware. What I think should be worth one point, someone else may rate at 10. And too many grants of 5 or 10 points apiece can quickly add up, just as the capitalist bonuses did in the Texas events. (And those did end up quite excessive.)

I have had good success with using things like militancy and consciousness changes to mark events and actually register an effect on the POPs in the game, and perhaps many problematic events can be addressed this way.

It also seems to me that it might be acceptable to allow the granting of minor benefits if those benefits are paid for by the player. That does bring up the question of valuation once again, however. For example, how much should a player pay for a 1% increase in production capacity? (I don't have an answer.)

One thing I've done is to use grants of one research point to mark such things as events involving use of technology. I take this to simulate an incremental increase in understanding and familiarity with technology based on instances of use.

 

[Theodotus1]

well, my claim about "Texas: +30 capitalists bonus" was based upon the entire file of texas events, there is a good chain for subsidies for the railroad that gives +10 bonus and then it takes it away... but there are also a lot that doesn't do that.
Take a look at my complete account and you will see that i have included the events that substracts bonuses...


About inventions, they are managed differently by the engine, they are not common events, if you look carefully, you will notice that they are "like" random events that can trigger only when they are activated by a tech.

You're exactly correct on this -- the bonuses that didn't go away were late additions to those particular events and weren't well thought out. (My previous design intent had been to zero them all out over time. Serves me right for working on things too late into the evening.) And that badly needed to be brought to light, as you did.

Your point regarding inventions is also well-taken. However, I've experienced non-invention events that also use production modifier changes, so such commands have not been limited by Paradox only to inventions. (That notwithstanding, many of the production increases in the Texas events can be replaced with other things, and they were too large as well. 5% may not seem much in a single instance, but you pointed out well that they added up.)

Any ideas you have regarding the Texas, California, or Deseret events will be appreciated. (They're all in the process of getting a makeover. One thing I learned well during testing is that events which require choices are more engaging that those which do not, so I'm adding B options to all the ones which can logically support them.)

Let me also thank you for your work on overseeing this project. I can imagine the amount of attention it requires.

 

[Theodotus1]

I agree with this, for I use prestige as an event tool a lot. It gives small help to countries, a slightly better presence on the market, without unbalancing things because typically other nations will gain prestige via events and war as well. I rarely go above 10, and frequently confine myself to 1 to 5. Same with research points. If you use smaller amounts, than you can justify more events.

Good points. I like the 1 - 5 range myself.

 

[Jayavarman]

VIE, Vientiane, does not exist in the the game time period. It was conquered and destroyed by Siam just before the start.

 

[Bryaxis]

Well, to all who ask...

VIP Benelux has currently prepared some 40 to 50 events, 80% of them being completly ready. I'm a bit late on my schedule, but the events currently ready should be posted for download during the week-end.

The team is currently working on the next 50 events, including some chains to create an Unified Low Countries and better simulate Congo. Those won't be posted for some time since we do not have tags assigned yet for those two new countries...

This is the current state of the VIP Benelux part of the global VIP project.

Any help ( ideas for events, coding, historical details to be corrected, ... ) welcome !

 

[Generalisimo]

Very nice. Like I said, what I'd like to see is a seperate thread for the people not following very closely which has all the events which are set in stone and ready to be tested. Nobody posts on it except for new events which are ready to go. Makes it a bit easier to sift through.

that's not necessary, when i finish gathering all and revising it, i will put an installer for you to download all... it will include events, POPs modifications, etc...
just be patient... it will be available in the next few days...

 

[Generalisimo]

It also seems to me that it might be acceptable to allow the granting of minor benefits if those benefits are paid for by the player. That does bring up the question of valuation once again, however. For example, how much should a player pay for a 1% increase in production capacity? (I don't have an answer.)

Well, to simulate the increase in efficiency, you can also look for a tech that gives the bonus that you want and grant that tech (or the invention) in an event... that way, you will avoid that they get a big bonus later (event+tech > tech only ).

 

[Generalisimo]

Let me also thank you for your work on overseeing this project. I can imagine the amount of attention it requires.

me eyes usually ends crossed after revising the POPs.... :rofl:

 

[Dunderdon]

isnt it possible to set how likely AI will choose an option anyway?

 

[Theodotus1]

Well, to simulate the increase in efficiency, you can also look for a tech that gives the bonus that you want and grant that tech (or the invention) in an event... that way, you will avoid that they get a big bonus later (event+tech > tech only ).

This is a good idea.

 

[aprof]

This is a good idea.

That's why they give him the big bucks.

 

[pimparel]

Well, to simulate the increase in efficiency, you can also look for a tech that gives the bonus that you want and grant that tech (or the invention) in an event... that way, you will avoid that they get a big bonus later (event+tech > tech only ).

It's really a good idea, however, we must have some constrains.

Cause if you give, let's say realist literature to a minor, early in the game. It will be 150 prestige points easy!!!

 

[Theodotus1]

It's really a good idea, however, we must have some constrains.

Cause if you give, let's say realist literature to a minor, early in the game. It will be 150 prestige points easy!!!

I've written a few events in which I gave tech or an invention to a country. But I only gave out tech that might already have been discovered anyway, and I made the country pay a bit for it, and I offered a refusal option in case the tech isn't needed.

I changed the events where I was giving out production increases to instead generate temporary life rating increases in relevant provinces, simulating heightened economic activity.

 

[pimparel]

I've written a few events in which I gave tech or an invention to a country. But I only gave out tech that might already have been discovered anyway, and I made the country pay a bit for it, and I offered a refusal option in case the tech isn't needed.

I changed the events where I was giving out production increases to instead generate temporary life rating increases in relevant provinces, simulating heightened economic activity.

Well, I am checking my events, bordering 150kb of txt!!!, by the n time. For any possible replacement of a bonus for a tech.

Thank god. That there is a TECHTIONARY!!!

 

[valisk]

We could also add in the Congo Free State independent from 1884-1908 before being absorbed by Belgium following an international outcry against Leopold II.

 

[aprof]

You getting antsy to make some events aprof?

Kind of. We have some events for a "Phillipines insurrection" waiting in limbo for want of a "PHI" tag.

I followed your Mexican AAR so I know you'll make excellent events for all the former Spanish Empire.

Thanks. I have done some MEX events, and events for the UCA countries and a much expanded event chain for a Spanish-American War over in the North America thread. I hope they live up to your expectations.

 

[Bryaxis]

We could also add in the Congo Free State independent from 1884-1908 before being absorbed by Belgium following an international outcry against Leopold II.

It is what I proposed earlier, without getting any answer... What the VIP Benelux is currently working on is a whole chain of events starting in 1878 ( first colonial attempts ). But it recquires an uncivilised Congo at game start in order to make it a satellite state of Belgium at the Berlin Congress and annexing it in 1908, this being the historical way but many other possibilities ( from no colonization to no changes in 1908 to full freedom in 1908 being possible ). May I recomand you to come and give your opinion on what has already been done and said ? Wel always need all the help we can find !