VIP - Closed discussions of Old Versions

[Alexander Seil]

Actually, OHGamer, that's the one I was talking about . I want to get it tomorrow.

Other good sources are:

Europe: A History by Norman Davies. Although it's a general history of Europe (a very detailed and well written one), it also has an impressive 100+ pages appendix to it, containing various statistics of interest, including those pertaining to various reforms in the 19th century.

Age of Revolution, Age of Capital and Age of the Empire, all by Eric Hobsbawm. Very detailed narrative with a useful statistical appendix.

 

[unmerged(1196)]

I would replace the term "Anarcho-liberalism" with "Radicalism" to represent extreme liberalism.

Though Radicalism is oft used to describe socialists, it fits well enough for liberals generally and is a term commonly used in American politics to refer to the (albeit modern) left.

From Webster's Unabridged:

Radical - One who advocates radical changes in government or social institutions, especially such changes as are intended to level class inequalities; -- opposed to conservative.

I don't think this works very well. Radical is a term generally designating the extreme left, that is to say, communists, anarchists, and in some cases, social democrats.

 

[Alexander Seil]

Again, what is the definition of a STATE, especially in Vicky terms? Nestor Makhno wasn't the sort of a guy to worry about law enforcement, education and tariffs...He and his revolters are best modelled as a very strong REB uprising.

 

[unmerged(1196)]

Of course Makhno didn't have any direct control over education, police, etc., since the Makhnovists formed a confederation of cities, as anarchist tend to do.

 

[Alexander Seil]

Although Nestor Makhno could,in theory, form some kind of a state if he was succesful, he was not. It would be an interesting what-if for a post-1918 scenario, however. You must remember that Ukraine alone would require several tags- Hetmanate, Petlura's nationalists and Makhno.

 

[unmerged(1196)]

It'd be interesting to have a Ukrainian nationalist tag too (of course this, like a Makhnovist tag would be dependent on there being enough left). But the Hetmanate state died out in the 18th century...

 

[Alexander Seil]

Hetmanate was ressurected by the Germans in 1918, but was overthrown by Petlura and his nationalists after some time. Seriously though, Russian Civil War is a matter so confused and complex that it deserves a scenario of its own. In fact, I might even do one, if they ever release a province editor (can't stand manual editing of province ownership).

 

[pimparel]

I might ask which unused tags we agreed on?

We should start to use them and the discussion should be around them. If the are in or out. Cause everyday I check is a new obscure tag with crazy pirate flag.

If so we could use a tag for the Owen Comune at US

 

[Alexander Seil]

Well, so far we agreed, in vague terms, to drop Byzantine Empire and include a few states in Africa, as well as the BEIC/BI.

 

[pimparel]

Originally posted by Alexander Seil
Well, so far we agreed, in vague terms, to drop Byzantine Empire and include a few states in Africa, as well as the BEIC/BI.

.

and South America? We have one historical tag which spanned a separatist country for 10 years

 

[Alexander Seil]

I'm not sure if we really reached any agreement on that. I guess that Rio-Grandese Republic of yours should be in, as well as a Maya state (assuming Zapatistas are succesful).

 

[Dark Knight]

Originally posted by Ramo
But if anarcho-liberal gov't is to mean a extremely liberal gov't that exports liberal revolution,

A government that comes to power through revolution isn't necessarily interested in spreading the revolution. And the US didn't have anywhere to spread it, anyway.

I don't see how the US fits. Politics in the US never really fit into the European mold; the Northern political elite were industrial protectionists, and the Southern political elite were feudalists, so neither side really fits comfortably into orthodox European liberalism.

The leaders of the American revolution were extremely influenced by liberal English and French philosophers, and the political systems they created reflect this.

 

[Mozart41st]

I realize that I am only a lurker on this board, but I would like to express my disappointment that certain posters have derailed efforts for the Byzantines to be included. Whether or not such a thing is historically realistic or not is mostly irrelevent. It is fun, and a tip of the hat to past Paradox games. It is something exciting that would attract players to this mod. We must remember this is only a game after all, and not something to be taken so deathly serious. To not include the Byzantines would be a grave error on the part of the VIP team.

 

[unmerged(1196)]

as well as a Maya state (assuming Zapatistas are succesful).

Strictly speaking, a Mayan state wouldn't only represent the Zapatistas. One such state, the Republic of the Yucatan, had a brief period of independence shortly after the game starts, and the region has revolted intermittently throughout the entire period.

BTW, have we decided to axe the Manhattan Commune? If we want a socialist American revolter, there are a number of more historical possibilities of cities, such as Chicago or St. Louis. And, we can lump these possiblities in with the Midwest Confederacy, as someone has suggested.

 

[OHgamer]

Originally posted by valisk
OHGamer,

On reflection I disagree with you about not giving BEIC/BI Dominion status as iirc satellites only have a defensive alliance, whereas if the UK was to go to war Indian troops would almost certainly take part. To guarantee this it needs to be created as a Dominion.

Ah that would be a fly in the ointment...if satellites don't have full alliance then the "dominion" route would be the way to go. As for the satellite native princely states, I would still keep some of the bigger ones (Hyderabad, Travancore, Kashmir for ex) but some of the smaller ones could be integrated in. Will look at the map later and make a list of what I'd suggest should stay & go.

 

[OHgamer]

Originally posted by Mozart41st
I realize that I am only a lurker on this board, but I would like to express my disappointment that certain posters have derailed efforts for the Byzantines to be included. Whether or not such a thing is historically realistic or not is mostly irrelevent. It is fun, and a tip of the hat to past Paradox games. It is something exciting that would attract players to this mod. We must remember this is only a game after all, and not something to be taken so deathly serious. To not include the Byzantines would be a grave error on the part of the VIP team.

To the best of my memory the CORE mod for Hearts of Iron does NOT have a Byzantine tag, and as we were made to view VIP as the Victoria equivalent to CORE I don't see a problem. If people want to do other alternative history mods and include a Byzantine tag then by all means do, but as has been discussed on this panel if there was to be a Greek restoration in Istanbul the most likely form it would have taken would have been via the Megali Idea of a revived Greek national state, not the restoration of an Orthodox Christian universal empire. If we want to, we could do a name change/flag change event a la what happens to Prussia when Germany unifies so that Greece, if it captures Istanbul, can if it chooses through event to rename itself as the Byzantine Empire but really don't see a need to have a Byzantine tag in VIP. Just my opinion though.

 

[Jayavarman]

Originally posted by Mozart41st
I realize that I am only a lurker on this board, but I would like to express my disappointment that certain posters have derailed efforts for the Byzantines to be included. Whether or not such a thing is historically realistic or not is mostly irrelevent. It is fun, and a tip of the hat to past Paradox games. It is something exciting that would attract players to this mod. We must remember this is only a game after all, and not something to be taken so deathly serious. To not include the Byzantines would be a grave error on the part of the VIP team.

VIP is not meant to improve the game by adding fantasy. Its priority is to increase historicity with "possible historicity" at the most extreme.
Besides, there is already a Byzantine fantasy mod being discussed in the scenario forum.

 

[Alexander Seil]

I dislike adding semi-fantasy nations until we sort out the historical part of it, and that's gonna take a while.

 

[valisk]

Quite right, adding Byzantium would be an irrelevance and reduce space for much more likely new nations during the time period.

 

[valisk]

Having been reading 'Kitchener' by Pollock I feel we could possibly be justified in adding the Anglo-Egyptian Condominium of the Sudan. It was effectively run as an independent state under the control of Britain, and theoretically, Egypt, though as Egypt was also under British military and economic control at the time this was a mere legal fiction to seperate the Sudan from the Commissioner of the Debt, who was in charge of Egyptian finances.