VIP - Balkans

[unmerged(19674)]

For Tunch Khan
I forgot to tell you Serbs in Kosovo and in Macedonia in that time
call themselfs Bulgarian and Greek because of reasons that I tell you. So because of that there are so many Greeks and Bulgarians there.

For Lascaris

You are absolutly right. I didnt think in a right way.



Where are going all our sugestions?
In new patch or in new mod? I hope in new patch.

 

[unmerged(19674)]

And in 1835 there should be a very little Turkish Sunni minority in Serbia. They should be officer and some little clerks because until 1867 Turks lived in Belgrade and other fortified Serbian cities.

 

[Alexander Seil]

I'm afraid that our suggestions won't ever make it into a patch . They will make it into this mod, however .

 

[Jayavarman]

Originally posted by Alexander Seil
I'm afraid that our suggestions won't ever make it into a patch . They will make it into this mod, however .

Why's that?

 

[Alexander Seil]

Because:
A) The changes may be too drastic for an average user to swallow
B) Some of the information may be considered controversial
C) It will hamper other modders' efforts due to the increased volume of information
D) Paradox has indicated, I believe, that the only part of this mod that just "might" make it are the POP files

I'm not a Paradoxer or even a betazoid, but similar mods (IGC for EU, EEP/AGC for EU2, CORE for HoI) were never integrated into the official patches.

 

[Jayavarman]

Oh, I was thinking about POPs...o

 

[Alexander Seil]

I wouldn't be too sure about that, considering how emotional people can get when facing what they consider "wrong" population data - that particularly applies to Eastern Europe (hell, I'm quite emotional about the independent Georgia thing ). Besides, inclusion of numerous minorities might severely alter what Paradox considered to be "game balance".

 

[Jayavarman]

I'm thinking that if the suggested POPs are created from the melding of "most-accurate" and "least-biased" sources, perhaps they would be adequate for inclusing, and I think that is what the people in this thread are trying to do---getting the fairest and "true-est"numbers. It is absurd if Paradox leaves no Greeks in Anatolia.

 

[Alexander Seil]

Or Germans in the Baltic...or the Volga region. Or Jews in Poland. Or African Minors in the Confederacy. Or creoles (mestizos) in Mexico. Or Catholics in Maryland. Or x in y. For each POP file there are ten that are missing .

 

[Grosshaus]

Originally posted by Alexander Seil
Or Germans in the Baltic...or the Volga region. Or Jews in Poland. Or African Minors in the Confederacy. Or creoles (mestizos) in Mexico. Or Catholics in Maryland. Or x in y. For each POP file there are ten that are missing .

There are Germans in the Baltic, are they missing in some scenarios? If so, please tell so in bug forum!

Naturally pops can be added in patches, they just have to be made extremely well. They must be more historical and more suitable gamebalancewise than the current ones, though.

 

[unmerged(22151)]

Originally posted by Phillip V
I'm thinking that if the suggested POPs are created from the melding of "most-accurate" and "least-biased" sources, perhaps they would be adequate for inclusing, and I think that is what the people in this thread are trying to do---getting the fairest and "true-est"numbers. It is absurd if Paradox leaves no Greeks in Anatolia.

At least the mod will be taking care of this one way or the other. Come to that the other scenarios are a mess down to having the borders wrong in 1881.

 

[unmerged(22151)]

As one more thought what it's country has as national provinces needs quite a bit of tweaking. Also claims from the various countries should be conflicting as more than one country would wan't them.

For a first list of additional claims by each country.

Greece:

Cyprus, Thrace (the Adrianople and constantinople provinces but not the one on the Anatolian side), Smyrna, the Plovdiv and Burghas provinces. Possibly the Scopje, Vlore and Petric provinces counting on what they are supposed to include and not include, for example Scopje itself might not have been terra irredenta but Monastir was and if it is assumed to belong to the Scopje province...

Serbia:

Bosnia, Novi Pazar, Kossovo and everything down to Scopje.

Bulgaria: Everything between Thessaly, Albania, Novi Pazar and the Serb border. All the Thrace provinces including Constantinople.

Montenegro:

The uppermost preovince of Albania.

 

[unmerged(255)]

Originally posted by Lascaris

Greece:

Cyprus, Thrace (the Adrianople and constantinople provinces but not the one on the Anatolian side), Smyrna, the Plovdiv and Burghas provinces. Possibly the Scopje, Vlore and Petric provinces counting on what they are supposed to include and not include, for example Scopje itself might not have been terra irredenta but Monastir was and if it is assumed to belong to the Scopje province...

Bulgaria: Everything between Thessaly, Albania, Novi Pazar and the Serb border. All the Thrace provinces including Constantinople.

How about Trebizond and Sinope for Greece?

And do we really want Bulgaria to have a claim on Constantinople? I see no historical reason for it (Russia is another matter of course)

 

[unmerged(13241)]

Originally posted by Lascaris
As one more thought what it's country has as national provinces needs quite a bit of tweaking. Also claims from the various countries should be conflicting as more than one country would wan't them.

For a first list of additional claims by each country.

Greece:

Cyprus, Thrace (the Adrianople and constantinople provinces but not the one on the Anatolian side), Smyrna, the Plovdiv and Burghas provinces. Possibly the Scopje, Vlore and Petric provinces counting on what they are supposed to include and not include, for example Scopje itself might not have been terra irredenta but Monastir was and if it is assumed to belong to the Scopje province...

Serbia:

Bosnia, Novi Pazar, Kossovo and everything down to Scopje.

Bulgaria: Everything between Thessaly, Albania, Novi Pazar and the Serb border. All the Thrace provinces including Constantinople.

Montenegro:

The uppermost preovince of Albania.

Shouldn't Serbia get a claim on Albania as well? IRL, they got it in the first Balkan war, before the Great powers created Albania, which "forced" the Serbs to take a larger chuck of Macedonia, which was promised to Bulgaria. Which in turn lead to the second Balkan war.
There should be an event for pan nationlist movement in Croatia, hard to imagine but they wanted to form one nation with the Serbs.

 

[Jayavarman]

Yeah, how 'bout working the kinks out with the nat. provs of Balkan nations, come to a consensus hopefully in a week or less, and then perhaps they will be fixed in next patch.

 

[Alexander Seil]

I suggest creating some event trees first...there seem to be many attempts to work the events "backwards" from some point in time. Instead, we should be "building" up the event tree from 1836. We obviously can't give the existing Balkan nations their "proper" claims outright - we don't want Serbia, Wallachia and Moldova running amok and causing chaos. On the other hand, we don't want them joining Ottomans. It is also important not to introduce modern nationalistic misconceptions about the time period in question - Croats were hardly at the forefront of the 1848 nationalist revolution...quite the opposite, in fact. Croats were the ones fighting against the revolting Hungarians.

 

[unmerged(255)]

Originally posted by Alexander Seil
I suggest creating some event trees first...there seem to be many attempts to work the events "backwards" from some point in time. Instead, we should be "building" up the event tree from 1836. We obviously can't give the existing Balkan nations their "proper" claims outright - we don't want Serbia, Wallachia and Moldova running amok and causing chaos. On the other hand, we don't want them joining Ottomans. It is also important not to introduce modern nationalistic misconceptions about the time period in question - Croats were hardly at the forefront of the 1848 nationalist revolution...quite the opposite, in fact. Croats were the ones fighting against the revolting Hungarians.

I second that notion--and yes, Croats were definitely loyal to the Emperor throughout 1848 (and their dislike for Hungarians endless, which certainly did play a part in their decision to fight for him, no doubt)

 

[Grosshaus]

Please bear in mind that claims equal national provinces. They shouldn't just be given if a country want's to expand to some direction, since they represent provinces which were not just thought to belong to a nation by the nation, but also by the inhabitants of the province. Would people in Constantinople willingly have lived under Bulgarian command?

I think areas of military expansion can be handled with tweaking AI's, claims/national provinces are often too harsh measures.

 

[Ivan Bajlo]

Originally posted by tuna
I second that notion--and yes, Croats were definitely loyal to the Emperor throughout 1848 (and their dislike for Hungarians endless, which certainly did play a part in their decision to fight for him, no doubt)

The reason Croats sided with Emperor was simple - one of the goals of Hungarian revolution was to make all "minorities" (Croats, Slovaks, Serbs, Romanians etc.) Hungarians with Hungary stretching from Carpathians to Adriatic sea.

Croatian national assembly chose Josip Jelacic for Viceroy and commander of Croatian army. One of his first decision was abolishment of serfdom (another thing that Paradox apparently left out).

During May Serbs in Vojvodina revolted against Hungarians. Hungarians and there supporters quickly took action and had Emperor Ferdinand V remove Jelacic from his post only to have him reinstated on 4th September and on 7th Jelacic declared war on government in Pest and left Varazdin with his army on 11th. After failure to take Pest he was ordered to move his troops to Wiena to help crush the revolt. Hungarians send army to help revolt and near Schwechat near Wiena Jelacic defeated Hungarian army and Emperor Franz Joseph I. expanded his authority to Rijeka (Fiume) and Dalmatia. Germans and Romanians in Transylvania revolted against Hungarians and for next months bloody fighting rages across Hungary and even Russians sent help to crush revolution.

 

[Alexander Seil]

I suggest simulating serfs as farmers with extremely low level of consciousness - even negative, if the game can handle that without crashing. Once they're liberated, we can have an increase in consciousness into positives. BTW, we should definitely handle the whole deal with "twin abolition" of serfdom in Hungary in detail . IMO that would make for some very interesting variants - say, if Emperor does not abolish serfdom, etc. The random = % condition can be used in this (say, 50% chance of Hungarian Diet abolishing serfdom after the Emperor). Someone has to work out the overall event tree first, of course.
Also, Siebenburgen tag can be used for an independent TRansylvanian state if the Hungarian republican revolt succeeds...

A note about Russians. We didn't just come in to "help" crush the revolt. Russian army, to put it simply, saved Austrian ass from total obliteration .