VIP - Balkans

[Mishko]

Bulgaria and Greece never had a treaty on spheres of influence as b/w Bulgaria and Serbia. The point of contention was Thessalonica, considered to be the GRAND PRIZE of the WHOLE WAR. Greece only claimed and was able to recieve Kavala after Bulgarian capitulation. Serbia also received more territories, than what she originally demanded after the London treaty.

Solun was everybody's aim, especialy Austria's. Since Serbia got Kosovo, their route to Thessaloniki got cut off. Hence pushing Bulgaria into the conflict with the pro-Antantean Greece.
Ok, so I switch Kavala in the events with Thessaloniki and Kavala. Sounds reasonable. Of course, the chance that Greece will give it up is much worse now.

Actually Serbia was left without even a tiny part. Everybody in their "right" mind in Sofia was sure that the Emperor wil rule the "disputed" zone to go to Bulgaria after the end of the war. That's why the cabinet was content to sign the treaty in the first place. And that's why IMHO the Serbs were so eager to dismiss the treaty and push for a totaly new division.

Not going into the discussion of treaties signed, but the original division line (from a Bulgarian map) was Presevo-Kumanovo-Tetovo (cities to go to Bulgaria) which ensured Serbian access to Albania. So it was a tiny microscopic part. But all of this is irrelevant.

That was exactly the Serbian argument after the end of BWI and the cornerstone of the secret "mutual defence treaty" with Greece b/w BWI and BWII, which called for a common border b/w the two countries. And no matter what map you look at - this meant that Bulgaria would get neither the "disputed" nor the "undisputed" zone.

Right. But occupation zones are a fact that no one can't deny. Govenrments can claim all they want if there's a guy with a gun over there, not letting them pass. That's why I think that post-BWI divisions should go along these lines. We'll avoid a whole lot of flames.
Anyhoo, thanks for the comments. I'm not going to submit these events for VIP before we straighten all of this out.

Granted that the maternal side of my family raises from modern day Kastoria (see south of Ochrid), I myself being part Macedonian always have had strong emphaty with those unfortunate people. And I can see their reason of looking for a separate identity.

I can understand that. My grand-grandfather was a consul in Greek Macedonia during the Balkan wars, and he fell in love with the country (and a Greek woman but that's another story) so he stayed in Ohrid.
Cheers,
Milos

 

[Tunch Khan]

I can understand that. My grand-grandfather was a consul in Greek Macedonia during the Balkan wars, and he fell in love with the country (and a Greek woman but that's another story) so he stayed in Ohrid.
Cheers,
Milos

That was probably after my grand-grand parents became refugees after the loss of Ohrid, where they used to live in a house overseeing the lake. I've never been there, but grow up listening to her beauties. It is surprising how often it changed hands in the last 90 years. It also very surprising how many people in this forum can have nice and civilized conversations even on the most heartbreaking nostalgic subjects. I really enjoy it and it makes me believe that future is going to be even better. (at least on this part of the world) Sorry to take your time on a little off-topic subject, i just couldn't stop myself when it came to Ohrid.

 

[Grosshaus]

Please start focus on modding again, most of the stuff going on in recent posts are history forums material.

Thank you!

 

[unmerged(19674)]

For a past few months I was just reading posts not submiting.

My Congratulations to all of you for unseen civilised discusion.

Milose odlicni su ti events samo tako nastavi!

 

[unmerged(5323)]

###############################################
#Admit Defeat in Serbo-Turkish War? -by Hrast
###############################################

event = {
id = 279008
random = no
country = TUR
trigger = {

war = { country = SER country = TUR }
event = 259013

OR = { control = { province = 910 data = SER }
control = { province = 910 data = MON }
control = { province = 910 data = REB } }

OR = { control = { province = 911 data = SER }
control = { province = 911 data = MON }
control = { province = 911 data = REB } }

OR = { control = { province = 932 data = SER }
control = { province = 932 data = MON }
control = { province = 932 data = REB } }

OR = { control = { province = 933 data = SER }
control = { province = 933 data = MON }
control = { province = 933 data = REB } }

OR = {
OR = { control = { province = 908 data = SER }
control = { province = 908 data = MON }
control = { province = 908 data = REB } }

OR = { control = { province = 729 data = SER }
control = { province = 729 data = MON }
control = { province = 729 data = REB } }

OR = { control = { province = 909 data = SER }
control = { province = 909 data = MON }
control = { province = 909 data = REB } }

OR = { control = { province = 940 data = SER }
control = { province = 940 data = MON }
control = { province = 940 data = REB } }

OR = { control = { province = 941 data = SER }
control = { province = 941 data = MON }
control = { province = 941 data = REB } }
}

}

name = "Admit Defeat in Serbo-Turkish War?"
desc = "With Serb troops and rebells in control of many of our provinces and Russia growing increasingly restless due to warmongering pan-Slavist agitation, perhaps the time has come to sue for peace. Shall we admit defeat and give up province of Bosnia-Herzegovina or shall we carry on fighting?"
style = 0
date = { day = 30 month = july year = 1876 }
offset = 15
deathdate = { day = 30 month = july year = 1881 }

action_a = { name = "Admit Defeat"
command = { type = pop_consciousness which = officers value = 1 }
command = { type = pop_militancy which = officers value = 1 }
command = { type = pop_consciousness which = turkish value = 1 }
command = { type = pop_militancy which = turkish value = 1 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = SER value = 729 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = SER value = 908 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = SER value = 909 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = SER value = 910 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = SER value = 911 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = SER value = 932 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = MON value = 933 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = SER value = 941 }
command = { type = peace which = SER }
command = { type = trigger which = 111019 }
}
action_b = { name = "Carry on Fighting!"
command = { type = trigger which = 251057 }
}
}

###############################################
#Russia enters the War -by Hrast
###############################################

event = {
id = 251057
random = no
country = RUS
trigger = { atwar = no
NOT = {
alliance = { country = RUS country = TUR }
satellite = { country = TUR country = RUS }
peace_treaty = { country = RUS country = TUR } }
relation = { country = SER data = -100 }
}
name = "Russia enters the War"
desc = "Now that Ottomans are swearing to continue to fight the public drummed up pan-Slavist agitators is calling even louder for our involment in the war. It might also be wise to attack now that Ottoman Empire has demonstrated it`s weakness by not being able to defend even against Serbia."
style = 0

action_a = { name = "Declare War"
command = { type = pop_consciousness which = officers value = -1 }
command = { type = pop_consciousness which = clerks value = -1 }
command = { type = pop_militancy which = officers value = -1 }
command = { type = pop_militancy which = clerks value = -1 }
command = { type = pop_consciousness which = russian value = -1 }
command = { type = pop_militancy which = russian value = -1 }
command = { type = pop_consciousness which = byelorussian value = -1 }
command = { type = pop_militancy which = byelorussian value = -1 }
command = { type = pop_consciousness which = ukrainian value = -1 }
command = { type = pop_militancy which = ukrainian value = -1 }
command = { type = relation which = SER value = 100 }
command = { type = war which = TUR }
}
action_b = { name = "Balkans are none of our concern"
command = { type = pop_consciousness which = officers value = 1 }
command = { type = pop_consciousness which = clerks value = 1 }
command = { type = pop_militancy which = officers value = 1 }
command = { type = pop_militancy which = clerks value = 1 }
command = { type = pop_consciousness which = russian value = 1 }
command = { type = pop_militancy which = russian value = 1 }
command = { type = pop_consciousness which = byelorussian value = 1 }
command = { type = pop_militancy which = byelorussian value = 1 }
command = { type = pop_consciousness which = ukrainian value = 1 }
command = { type = pop_militancy which = ukrainian value = 1 }
command = { type = relation which = SER value = -50 }
}
}

###############################################
#Austrian Claims on Bosnia-Herzegovina -by Hrast
###############################################

event = {
id = 111019
random = no
country = AUS
trigger = { NOT = { is_GP = SER } }
name = "Austrian Claims on Bosnia-Herzegovina"
desc ="By Reichstadt Convention which was signed by Austria and Russia after Serbo-Turkish war erupted, in case Serbia and Montengro would be victorious in the war, only a part of Bosnia-Herzegovina would go to them and the other part would receive Austria. In return Austria guranteed she would remain indeependant in case of a Russian war with the Ottoman Empire."
style = 0

action_a = { name = "Claim Bosnia-Herzegovina"
command = { type = pop_consciousness which = officers value = -1 }
command = { type = pop_militancy which = officers value = -1 }
command = { type = relation which = SER value = -200 }
command = { type = trigger which = 251058 }
}
action_b = { name = "Do not claim Bosnia-Herzegovina"
command = { type = pop_consciousness which = officers value = 1 }
command = { type = pop_militancy which = officers value = 1 }
command = { type = relation which = SER value = 100 }
command = { type = prestige value = 25 }
command = { type = trigger which = 259017 }
}
}

###############################################
#Austrian Claims on Bosnia-Herzegovina -by Hrast
###############################################

event = {
id = 251058
random = no
country = RUS
name = "Austrian Claims on Bosnia-Herzegovina"
desc ="By Reichstadt Convention which was signed by Austria and Russia after Serbo-Turkish war erupted, in case Serbia and Montengro would be victorious in the war, only a part of Bosnia-Herzegovina would go to them and the other part would receive Austria. In return Austria guranteed she would remain indeependant in case of a Russian war with the Ottoman Empire."
style = 0

action_a = { name = "Acknowledge Austrian claims"
command = { type = relation which = SER value = -100 }
command = { type = relation which = AUS value = 100 }
command = { type = relation which = ENG value = 35 }
command = { type = trigger which = 259018 }
}
action_b = { name = "Give Serbia full Support!"
command = { type = relation which = SER value = 100 }
command = { type = relation which = AUS value = -100 }
command = { type = relation which = ENG value = -35 }
command = { type = trigger which = 259019 }
}
}

###############################################
#End of the Serbo-Turkish War -by Hrast
###############################################

event = {
id = 259017
random = no
country = SER
name = "End of the Serbo-Turkish War"
desc ="We won the war against the Ottomans and liberated Bosnia from the Turkish yoke and although there were some indications, Austria would claim Bosnia-Herzegovina for herself that did not happen. Whole Bosnia is ours!"
style = 0

action_a = { name = "Great!"
command = { }
}
}

###############################################
#End of the Serbo-Turkish War -by Hrast
###############################################

event = {
id = 259018
random = no
country = SER
name = "End of the Serbo-Turkish War"
desc ="We won the war against the Ottomans and liberated Bosnia from the Turkish yoke, however Austria claimed our newly gained province to be their and Russian diplomatical backing failed to materialise, consequentialy leaving us with no option but to retreat from most of the newly liberated territory."
style = 0

action_a = { name = "Argh!"
command = { type = secedeprovince which = AUS value = 729 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = AUS value = 908 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = AUS value = 909 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = AUS value = 910 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = AUS value = 932 }
}
}

###############################################
#End of the Serbo-Turkish War -by Hrast
###############################################

event = {
id = 259019
random = no
country = SER
name = "End of the Serbo-Turkish War"
desc ="We won the war against the Ottomans and liberated Bosnia from the Turkish yoke, however Austria claimed our newly gained province to be their. Luckly Russia supported us and we handed out to Austrians only a part of what they claimed."
style = 0

action_a = { name = "Ok!"
command = { type = secedeprovince which = AUS value = 729 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = AUS value = 908 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = AUS value = 909 }
}
}


I wrote events in case Serbia wins the Serbo-Turkish war (-probably only likely if controled by a human player). Turkey may choose to carry on fighting, but that will likely bring Russia into the picture. And Serbia player probably won`t have much from victory as Austria will most likely claim and in the end occupy Bosnia (except for a tiny part ).
They are not final versions (esspecialy the wording (I am very open to suggestion concerning the text and names of the events), but any comments just the same?

Also what do you people think how should be Constantinople Conference simulated in case Ottomans go with it? A mini-Bulgaria satellite? And when Russia declares war on Ottomans should Great Britain get a low-chance event to ally with Ottomans/DOW Russia. Disraeli then did suggest British troops occupy Gallipoli and keep it, but was rejected by cabinet. The problem is, occupying Gallipoli doesn`t formaly mean you are in war against Russia or in alliance with Ottomans, even if such a move would with time lead to both.

 

[Mishko]

Also what do you people think how should be Constantinople Conference simulated in case Ottomans go with it?

Well first, we should see if such a conference should happen. Remember that Serbia and Montenegro lost the war, which brought about the question of their stability. That's why the Great Powers insisted on the conference.
The historical C.c. event should be called if Ottomans occupy a province of Serbia or Montenegro - Russia would pressure them to pull out, and Austria would seize the opportunity to intervene diplomatically. If Serbia wins the war, your events will do fine, and they could simulate the conference.
Bulgaria should definitely be created. They almost never liberate themselves, and Russia doesn't do it either. To avoid mega-Bulgaria created at the C.c. and revised just two years later, go witht the smaller version. Less work for us. Bulgaria should be a satellite of the Ottomans (they certainly weren't a Russian satellite), but for how long? Serbia was a (realistically) a satellite untill the Turkish garizons pulled out of Belgrade and Nis (right after this war). Does anyone know of a similar event in Bulgarian history?

And when Russia declares war on Ottomans should Great Britain get a low-chance event to ally with Ottomans/DOW Russia.

Hmm wasn't one Crimean war enough for them?
BTW, nice job Hrast.
Milos

 

[Dibo]

To avoid mega-Bulgaria created at the C.c. and revised just two years later, go witht the smaller version. Less work for us. Bulgaria should be a satellite of the Ottomans (they certainly weren't a Russian satellite), but for how long? Serbia was a (realistically) a satellite untill the Turkish garizons pulled out of Belgrade and Nis (right after this war). Does anyone know of a similar event in Bulgarian history?

No, there were no Ottoman garrisons in Bulgaria or Rumelia after 1878. The Ottomans tried to send some in Eastern Rumelia in 1878, but the Russian occupational forces were still present and the population was strongly opposed to such an idea. So the Ottomans reasonably abandoned the idea. IMHO Bulgaria was definitely a satellite of Russia, especially in 1879-1883. The first serious rift was the Annexation of Eastern Rumelia in 1885, which Russia refused to support. The Russians got so far as to recall all their officers and advisors from both Bulgarian armies (The Principality Army and the Eastern Rumelia militia). That's the reason why the highest ranking Bulgarian officer in the 1885 war was a Lt.-Col., and most of them were Captains.
As for the Ottoman influence it was never very high after 1878 and was constantly diminishing. Bulgaria was formally a vassal until 1908. The Bulgarian prince was granted in 1886 the rule of Eastern Rumelia by the Ottomans, which was in fact a fait accompli already.

 

[unmerged(23747)]

###############################################
#Admit Defeat in Serbo-Turkish War? -by Hrast
###############################################

I read all of it and it is great.

They are not final versions (esspecialy the wording (I am very open to suggestion concerning the text and names of the events), but any comments just the same?

There are some typos in the event descriptions - like "it's" instead of "its", "indepeendant" instead of "independent" (maybe "neutral" ), and "their" instead of "theirs" (maybe "hers" ), but the overall spirit is very accurate IMHO.

Also what do you people think how should be Constantinople Conference simulated in case Ottomans go with it?

Remember that Serbia and Montenegro lost the war, which brought about the question of their stability. That's why the Great Powers insisted on the conference.
The historical C.c. event should be called if Ottomans occupy a province of Serbia or Montenegro

Well I thought CC came about also in connection with the repression of Bosnian and Bulgarian uprisings. I excuse myself in advance - I have read much less (almost nothing apart from history textbooks) about this period, than about 1910-1920, so Mishko might be right.

And I may be wrong again, but IMHO the level of autonomy CC provided for the two Bulgarian "regions" was about the same given to East Rumelia after the Berlin Congress - i.e. administrative reorganization and giving Christians access to government positions (in police, local governments and political representation). So the two Bulgarias to be created would not have been separate from Turkey political entities like Serbia, Wallachia, Bulgaria and Greece in their initial periods as vassal (yet politically independent) Ottoman principalities.

I found this source that gives a brief description: http://www.bartleby.com/67/1106.html

I think that a possible approach for CC events may be

1.Bulgaria+Bosna rebel and are subdued
2.CC
3a. Turkey accepts - Turkish prestige/consciousness hit, create two satellite Bulgarias
3b. Turkey rejects - Russo-Turkish war event

I hope this post is more constructive towards modding than my previous posts. I accept blame for being too "historical"

Looking at the work you two guys have done I have to say just one thing - this is all so great.

 

[Mishko]

Well I thought CC came about also in connection with the repression of Bosnian and Bulgarian uprisings.

That too. The entire region was destabilized.

I think that a possible approach for CC events may be
1.Bulgaria+Bosna rebel and are subdued
2.CC
3a. Turkey accepts - Turkish prestige/consciousness hit, create two satellite Bulgarias
3b. Turkey rejects - Russo-Turkish war event

First of all, we can't have two Bulgarias. No new countries may be added. What I think we should do is try to match the events that happen before 1881 so that they would lead to a situation similar at the begining of the 1881 scenario.
Second, it's stupid to make a sequence of events that rely only on rebels - a player can garrison each province in Bosnia and Bulgaria. What we should do is give Serbia and Montenegro "casus belli" events for Bosnian uprising so they can aid the rebels and stir unrest in Bosnia and Bulgaria even more (as historically happened).
Cheers,
Milos

 

[unmerged(23747)]

...it's stupid...

...

Just a proposal. I did not have any intention of messing with your work.

 

[Mishko]

Just a proposal. I did not have any intention of messing with your work.

I'm not saying you're stupid. I'm saying people who count on rebels in Vic to accomplish something by themselves are stupid. At least in 1.02
Anyhoo, if you'd like to help come up with few (A FEW!) events for Bulgaria and I'll code 'em up. You'll have to provide the text, though.
Cheers,
Milos

 

[unmerged(23747)]

After I thought things out IMHO from the Bulgarian prespective:

1.
Proposal:
a.CC should call for Bulgaria covering Skopie 918, Sofia 920, Burgas 972, Plovdiv 973, Pleven 974, Varna 975, Silistra 976, Constantsa 976, Petric 1007 (I probably mistakenly added/missed some - what I tried to do is fit Exarchate to Vic map - please correct me if I made a mistake). My rationale is that this is historically more accurate than "small" Bulgaria. See the source I provided in previous post.
b.Low chance of Turkey accepting. My rationale - historically Britain backed them up to reject resolutions. See once again my previous post for source.
1.1 If Turkey denies- cassus belli for yet another Russo-Turkish war. Hopefully "liberating" Bulgaria.
1.2 If Turkey accepts she takes prestige and consciousness hit.
a.New state is vassal and in strong alliance with Ottomans. My rationale is that the level of autonomy historically is more administrative, than political. See same source and my own comparisment to other vassal principalities on the Balkans.
b.The new state has capital at Sofia. My rationale is that this is my home town :rofl: . No, just kidding. I think the rationale is that this choice is rational
Issues:
a.I do aknowledge the problem with creating a "big" Bulgaria for BoP and BoG. I do not know how this issue can be addressed. Milos and Hrast - you have experience and contacts with moderators - you should give your say.
b.I did not address political orientation modding of this new state and do not know if this needs to be addressed. Once again the "professionals" need to speak.
c. You will come up with other issues, I just can't think of any right now :rofl:
Alternative proposal:
Change 1.2 to read: If Turkey accepts she takes prestige and consciousness hit. No Bulgarian state is created. Rationale is that the autonomy was only to be administrative, not political - see my previous post for reasoning and source.

Now on the BW events

But occupation zones are a fact that no one can't deny.

When this statement is put in connection with the BW, I do admit that I usually start loosing my temper. This discussion has helped me emotionally to overcome my predicaments and take a more constructive approach. Thank you Milos, and too bad for my psychoanalyst. :rofl:

So for Vic gaming purposes and historically correct (it will lead to BWII) let's take occupation lines as guidelines for territorial gains after possible Turkish defeat.

2.
Proposal:
a.In case of event "ACTIONNAME279050A" #Cave in to their demands" as Mishko scripted in post #214 in this thread
a.a IMHO you should change "command = { type = secedeprovince which = GRE value = 968 }#Kavala" to BUL. My rationale is that it was historically in Bulgarian occupation b/w BWI and BWII.
2.1 Bulgarian ulimatum against Serbia for Skopie 918. My rationale is that this is what happened - right?
2.2 Bulgarian ultimatum against Greece for Thessaloniki 1006.
2.2a Now, I'm not so sure about this one. I do not want to turn it into a history discussion (and I am a liability on this one), but historically this event is not entirely correct. You may consider striking 2.2 altogether.
2.1/2a Bulgarian ultimatum against whoever the hell holds Ochrid - I can't figure it out - is it in Skopie 918, Kozani 919, or Eddesa 920? Believe me in 1913 Bulgaria would have given an ultimatum to the German Empire herself, or for that case to any (!!!) "unfortunate" country, that found herself in possession of this "holy" for the Bulgarian national mythology city.
Issues:
Mishko has already done way too much on BW and may not want to reopen the issue. I can understand.

BTW I just saw that new post

I'm not saying you're stupid. I'm saying people who count on rebels in Vic to accomplish something by themselves are stupid. At least in 1.02
Anyhoo, if you'd like to help come up with few (A FEW!) events for Bulgaria and I'll code 'em up. You'll have to provide the text, though.

I did not originally want to get involved in Vic modding. It all started with one post on this thred, then it grew into compulsive posting.
And I'm somewhat ashamed to confess that the last few weekends I got hooked again on an old save I have with Hull City in CM3, and have not even looked at Victoria.
It looks like Von Loch Ness has taken the initiative to create some BUL events.
I have to admit that it was not my original intention to spend this night watching Congressional hearings about 9/11 on PBS and post on this forum, but the events of that period interest me greatly. To this day I believe that my life would have been very different - like better - if not for what happened on July 29, 1913 and the aftermath - even though my great grand parents were still teenagers back then.
This may explain why I need psychoanalyst in the firstplace :rofl:

 

[unmerged(5323)]

...a.CC should call for Bulgaria covering Skopie 918, Sofia 920, Burgas 972, Plovdiv 973, Pleven 974, Varna 975, Silistra 976, Constantsa 976, Petric 1007 (I probably mistakenly added/missed some - what I tried to do is fit Exarchate to Vic map - please correct me if I made a mistake). My rationale is that this is historically more accurate than "small" Bulgaria. See the source I provided in previous post

I think sattellite Bulgaria by CC is OK. It wouldn`t really be as independant as the rest of the Balkan states, but she would had own prince and a police and once Balkan principalities got any autonomy they got just more and more. I think it should be confined to western provinces though. It stands on rather shaky grounds as it is. And it would be way too much to demand from Ottomans to give up more territory on CC than they had to at Berlin. (No Bulgaria though means Ottomans would be idiots not to accept.)

Well first, we should see if such a conference should happen. Remember that Serbia and Montenegro lost the war, which brought about the question of their stability. That's why the Great Powers insisted on the conference.

Linking Constantinople Conference to the end of Serbo-Turkish War would be ideal. But it can be very complicated as well. Say what if the war drags on for 5 years? It is too much to for Russia to have to wait 5 years until it has a chance for war.

I was planning on simulating Eastern Crisis as two paralel and independant theathres. Bosnian insurrection and Serbo-Turkish war seperatley and Constantinople Conference, Bulgarian insurrection, Russo-Turkish war and Berlin Conggress seperatley. Not most historicaly correct, but otherwise it gets too complicated for a mortal to handle.

Therefore I was gonna have CC trigger by date (as a first event for the Russo-Turkish theathre). In case Bulgarian insurrection was delt with then it was the heavy handed Ottoman response is what brought GPs to Constantinople and if rebells are stil active it is becouse of the destabilisation.

And no talk about BiH on CC. An autonomous Bosnia would really mess things up (and breaks the non-influence policy on two seperate theathres in EC).

 

[unmerged(23747)]

I think sattellite Bulgaria by CC is OK. It wouldn`t really be as independant as the rest of the Balkan states, but she would had own prince and a police).

There was not to be a "prince" but a "governor" - so this was not to be a real state anyway - more like Bosna (under Austrian administration, and never achieved independence) and East Rumelia (under nominal Turkish adminisration, but effectively the ONLY Turkish representative was the governor, there was no Turkish military or officers present on its territory) after the Berlin conference.

And it would be way too much to demand from Ottomans to give up more territory on CC than they had to at Berlin.

This is just the historic fact of what the Conference resolutions presented to the Ottomans were. And it WAS too much to demand, they rejected it - with British support - see source again. Just being historically correct.

I was planning on simulating Eastern Crisis as two paralel and independant theathres. Bosnian insurrection and Serbo-Turkish war seperatley and Constantinople Conference, Bulgarian insurrection, Russo-Turkish war and Berlin Conggress seperatley. Not most historicaly correct, but otherwise it gets too complicated for a mortal to handle.

Well it sounds OK by me - complicated - yes.

Therefore I was gonna have CC trigger by date (as a first event for the Russo-Turkish theathre)

I can only wish you could be more generous with date ranges for the triggers - I am not familiar with the game dynamics, but April uprising/European resentment of bloodshed/CC/Russo-Turkish "liberating" war should be possible to happen from - let's say - 1875 to 1904 (I can explain how I choose those dates, but will spare you for now). I just do not know if this is possible, or whether it needs to be hard codded to 1876. You can fill me on this one.

And no talk about BiH on CC.

I don't have the desire to advocate the Bosnian cause here, but why not give her the same treatment Bulgaria, as this was what really happened at CC - see source again (I figure your reasons have to do with the raging Serbo-Turkish war and events that go in there anyway - right?)

And finally

Ottomans would be idiots not to accept

They were, no arguments from me on this one :rofl:

 

[unmerged(5323)]

There was not to be a "prince" but a "governor" - so this was not to be a real state anyway - more like Bosna (under Austrian administration, and never achieved independence) and East Rumelia (under nominal Turkish adminisration, but effectively the ONLY Turkish representative was the governor, there was no Turkish military or officers present on its territory) after the Berlin conference.

Yes a governor. But a christian one.

This is just the historic fact of what the Conference resolutions presented to the Ottomans were. And it WAS too much to demand, they rejected it - with British support - see source again. Just being historically correct.

What was more important than the British was public support. And it wasn`t too much to demand. The demands were dubbed "irreducible minimum" and were basicaly only those reforms Ottomans were promising earlier.

The west and east parts were to be seperate. Best solution would be two autonomous (and not satellite Bulgarias). Becouse that is impossible the next best thing is one (-western) satellite and one (-eastern) totaly under Ottoman control. (-Against two satellite or two totaly under OE). It is lame I know, but what can a poor boy do? Alternativley I could ditch CC altogether and have Russians declare war out of the blue.
But one united satellite Bulgaria is too much. That is San Stefano. Only without war. CC certainly wasn`t about that!

I can only wish you could be more generous with date ranges for the triggers - I am not familiar with the game dynamics, but April uprising/European resentment of bloodshed/CC/Russo-Turkish "liberating" war should be possible to happen from - let's say - 1875 to 1904 (I can explain how I choose those dates, but will spare you for now). I just do not know if this is possible, or whether it needs to be hard codded to 1876. You can fill me on this one.

That way all synchronisation with BiH uprising and Serbo-Turkish war would be lost. Also why would you want Bulgaria to spring up later? And it is not really an April Uprising if it happens on december 1890.

 

[Mishko]

If you look at the maps from 1876 you can see that a giant Bulgaria did spring up (it's not 1914, the name of the file is wrong)
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/balkan_boundaries_1914.jpg
but it lasted for less than a year, and it's doubtful that there was any organized army presence in the western parts.

Then, in 1878 you get a separate Rumelia.
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/eastern_europe1878.jpg
Note that 1882 date for Nis is wrong. Serbian army marched in there in 1878, and if that's not true, they'll have to order a new giant statue for the town square. Also, the map seems disproportional.

Here we have a Bulgaria with Rumelia. They got it on September 6th 1885. And then there was that humiliating war. Stupid King Milan.
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/balkan_states_1899.jpg

So, I hope that people agree that creating a Bulgaria with Rumelia, Skopje and even Nis, and then taking it all away a few months later is not a good event design. If there was any other reason to do it than historical accuracy (nitpicking to be exact), I would like to hear it. If not, we do it the easier way. Bulgaria had no choice but to return those lands to the Ottomans - they had no army, and Russians just got a peace treaty.
As for Rumelia, I propose we leave it with the Ottomans (in order to keep it in line with the 1881 scenario), but make it really hard for them to keep it. Giant consciousness and militancy increase for Bulgarians?
Cheers,
Milos

 

[OHgamer]

I think one benefit of keeping the "Big Bulgaria" gains in wake of a Russo-Turkish war in the 1870s would be to provide a trigger for a Congress Of Berlin chain that would then not only reduce Big Bulgaria to what it became post-1878 but also allow the creation of an Austrian Bosnia-Herzegovina, cede Cyprus to the UK, and allow for changing some diplomatic values in the post 1878 era

 

[Mishko]

There can be such a thing as too many events. I was just proposing that we stick both San Stefano (March 1878) and the Berlin conference (July 1878) in one event. A difference of a few months doesn't mean much.
Cheers,
Milos

 

[OHgamer]

I guess I am from the school of thought that the more events the better, especially in complicated series such as the Balkan Crisis of 1875-1878. Especially in a multiplayer scenario, it would be nice if say there were options for a UK player and a Russia player agreed to cooperate diplomatically, then having a trigger for the Congress of Berlin could start as PRU/GER requesting ENG support for a conference when "Greater Bulgaria" is created, and the ENG player would have the option to refuse, which in a multiplayer scenario could create some wonderful results. With everything lumped in together, the potential for dynamic multiplayer games is reduced.

 

[Mishko]

Sounds like a fun tangled net of events. Code them up, and I promise I won't complain.
Cheers,
Milos