Vikings, anyone?

[Folt-leabhar]

Some questions about vikings:

1. One scholar who had studied vikings and their mythologies had this theory that the vikings converted to christianity mainly because the fast spreading of christianity and losing battles like in clontarf in 1014 against (mainly)christian celts, was taken as the coming of ragnarök. And they thought that Jesus was actually Balder who had come to destroy Odin the god of death. Is this theory complete bollocks or not.

2.There is this rather unknown god called Tyr in viking mythologies. Some sources say that he was some minor sky god in the german mythologies and other sources that he was originally a mortal but did so good in the battle fields that he was raised among gods.

3.Were there viking(and theri celtic colleagues) berserkers or are they just mythical characters.

 

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re:3. There are certainly stories of beserkers - a discussion currently going on on Old Norse Net (a scholarly discussion list) certainly indicates that the members think that the berserkir were real.
The original question there was as to why the berserkir would chew on thier shileds going into battle. Some point to the possibility of eating mushrooms as a reason that men went berserk.
One possiblity that I have put forward were that berserkers were warriors who got "into the zone" (or as psychologists call it, the flow) in a similar way that Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods does when they are on their game.

According to one study as reported in the New York Times:

"The study also found that exercisers prone to flow were also highly
susceptible to being hypnotized. Overlapping features of the flow and
hypnotic states "include dissociation/detachment from one's surroundings, absorption, feelings of control, and perceptual distortions such as altered perceptions of time," Dr. Grove said. "

See http://talentdevelop.com/aflow.html

Sounds similar to the berserker to me...

michael

 

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Originally posted by Folt-leabhar
Some questions about vikings:

1. One scholar who had studied vikings and their mythologies had this theory that the vikings converted to christianity mainly because the fast spreading of christianity and losing battles like in clontarf in 1014 against (mainly)christian celts, was taken as the coming of ragnarök. And they thought that Jesus was actually Balder who had come to destroy Odin the god of death. Is this theory complete bollocks or not.

I don't know if the process over hundreds of years of increased influence of Christianity in the North would be perceived as "fast" by the people of the time. That losing some battles (where AFAIK by that time Christian vikings were already very common) had any impact on the major trends sounds a bit far fetched. As for the Balder-Odin stuff, it's not something I have heard about really. But since the evidence we have about the thought processes leading to conversion isn't exactly overwhelming the field is open for a lot of theories.

But overall it sounds like bollocks. There were about a million other factors than possible defeats and Balder connections.

Originally posted by Folt-leabhar

2.There is this rather unknown god called Tyr in viking mythologies. Some sources say that he was some minor sky god in the german mythologies and other sources that he was originally a mortal but did so good in the battle fields that he was raised among gods.

What is the question? AFAIK by Viking times he was the god of valor. There are a couple stories about him. Was he at some point a mortal? We'll never know.

Originally posted by Folt-leabhar

3.Were there viking(and theri celtic colleagues) berserkers or are they just mythical characters.

We don't have any really hard evidence (I don't know what that would consist of) so we'll never be absolutely certain I guess. But since they are mentioned many times my guess is that they existed.

 

[Folt-leabhar]

Re: Re: Vikings, anyone?

Originally posted by The Brain




What is the question? AFAIK by Viking times he was the god of valor. There are a couple stories about him. Was he at some point a mortal? We'll never know.

Yes, I simply forgot the question itself And the question is that who he really was?

 

[Folt-leabhar]

Originally posted by mzalar
re:3. There are certainly stories of beserkers - a discussion currently going on on Old Norse Net (a scholarly discussion list) certainly indicates that the members think that the berserkir were real.
The original question there was as to why the berserkir would chew on thier shileds going into battle. Some point to the possibility of eating mushrooms as a reason that men went berserk.
One possiblity that I have put forward were that berserkers were warriors who got "into the zone" (or as psychologists call it, the flow) in a similar way that Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods does when they are on their game.

According to one study as reported in the New York Times:

"The study also found that exercisers prone to flow were also highly
susceptible to being hypnotized. Overlapping features of the flow and
hypnotic states "include dissociation/detachment from one's surroundings, absorption, feelings of control, and perceptual distortions such as altered perceptions of time," Dr. Grove said. "

See http://talentdevelop.com/aflow.html

Sounds similar to the berserker to me...

michael

Yes, I've heard about the mushrooms. I guess the feel of battle certainly did cause somekind adrenaline rush as the culture was warrior centered. As for celts charging into battle skyclad without much of stragedy does sound very berserkish.

 

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One more thing about Tyr: Since "Tyr" just means "god" I have heard that he may have been more important in earlier times compared to his relatively minor role later.

 

[Salik]

I think Tyr was the son of a jette, who became god of war. It was also him who feeded the Fenriswolf while it lay in Asgaard, and he later lost his arm, when the wolf was chained. Thats about what I know about Tyr, except that he followed Tor on many journeys.

 

[Vandelay]

Thre is indeed some theory that Tyr had a more important role in the pre-Viking era, being the equivalent of a Germanic god called Tiwas I think. This is largely argument in absence of evidence so different theories abound.

Other than that I know he belonged to the Aesir rather than the Vanir, was considered the bravest of them all, got his hand chopped of by Fenrir and that warriors sometimes carved his rune (T) on their swords for battle-luck. AFAIK of the hundreds of preserved Viking Age swords none have this rune...

Some other opinions:

Berserkers probably existed, there are many stories of people going berserk in other eras and cultures for it not to be too far-fetched. Shield-Maidens though...

Christianty - seems to have been (at least in Sweden) adopted by the aristocracy together with other continental ideologies (e.g. feudalism, written laws, royal demesnes etc.) because it gave them more effective "tools" to control people and resources. Christianity then filtered down thorugh the social ladder.

Cheers,
Vandelay

 

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Originally posted by Folt-leabhar
Some questions about vikings:

1. One scholar who had studied vikings and their mythologies had this theory that the vikings converted to christianity mainly because the fast spreading of christianity and losing battles like in clontarf in 1014 against (mainly)christian celts, was taken as the coming of ragnarök. And they thought that Jesus was actually Balder who had come to destroy Odin the god of death. Is this theory complete bollocks or not.

Bollock for sure, it would only be possible if Odin was evil and Balder good.
That is wrong, both of them was considered to be on the same side.
Balder was the good of light, and killed by a mistake.
Loke the trickster was the one to blame, and was severely punished by Odin because of this.
He would be chained with the intestines of his children (to insure he would not break free), and above him the gods decided to hang a great snake.
From this Snake fell a strong poison, always down into the mouth a eyes of Loke.
However Loke was a lucky man, he had a good wife that kept at his side with a bowl.
Always insuring that none of the poison would touch him.
Unfortunately she sometimes had to empty it, and thus Loke would get the poison in his eyes.
His pain was considered to be the reason for earthquakes.
This docent sound like Odin hated Balder does it ?.
Also something you should consider is that while Odin was the god of death (also god of, war, sorcery, wisdom, creation etc.), that did not make him evil.
He only received the brave warriors, the rest went to the evil god of death hel (a daughter of Loke).
Odin himself was destined to be killed by the Fenris wolf (another child of Loke).

A more likely hypothesis might that the Vikings believed Christ could vanquish the third child of Loke, the great worm.
At Ragnarok it would kill and be killed by Thor.
Also Christ returned from the death, and was above fate.
Something that you could not say about the Nordic gods(who in most of the cases, was destined to die).
Yet another good reason behind the succes of Christianity, was the support of the nordic Kings.

Originally posted by Folt-leabhar

2.There is this rather unknown god called Tyr in viking mythologies. Some sources say that he was some minor sky god in the german mythologies and other sources that he was originally a mortal but did so good in the battle fields that he was raised among gods.

Tyr was the god of honourable combat, and considered as the bravest among the gods.
He was a very civilised god of war, and as such he stand in contrast with Thor (who was something of a Berserker).
Tyr only had one hand/arm, because he volunteered to stick it into the mouth of the Fenris wolf (it would not let the gods chain it unless one of them did this, the wolf could not get lose again and poor Tyr lost his arm).

Originally posted by Folt-leabhar

3.Were there viking(and theri celtic colleagues) berserkers or are they just mythical characters.

Hard to say, it is a much debated topic.
But you must also remember that the Vikings was a bit suicide crazy due to religion.
Only the warriors that died bravely in battle, would go to Valhalla and serve Odin.
Everybody else would go to hel (a place much like Tartarus in Greek myths).

 

[Folt-leabhar]

Thanks,
More I'd like to know:

1.What was the meaning of the Van/Vani/Vanir and the Disir
2.Ull or Ullr, Njord, the brothers of Odin Vile and Ve, Odins wife Frigg and Höner are some gods whose role I'm not aware of.

 

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Follow up on the beserkir line:

"The flow argument is a good one. I don't see why we shouldn't accept thev existence of berserks, if only because the practice was extant in modern times. Any U. S. Marines still with us who survived a Japanese banzai charge have some experience of fighting sword-weilding people who worked themselves into a frenzy and, sometimes, seemed to feel no pain from their wounds.
Similarly, American soldiers and marines who fought in the Phillipine
Insurrection at the turn of the century endured charges by machete-toting Moro tribesmen that look mighty like berserker charges. According to military legend (and it may even be true, but I haven't referenced it yet), it was around that time that the U.S. switched its standard sidearm from .38 to .45 caliber. The superior knock-down power of the heavier weapon was, they say, necessary to stop a charging Moro in his altered state of consciousness. If these examples of berserker fury can be accepted as genuine (the World War II example being still within living memory--vivid, nightmarish memory for those on both sides who survived), why shouldn't we
accept that some Norse warriors went berserk, as described?
George Nicholas
Benedictine College"

from Old Norse Net mailing list.

Can anyone else come up with "modern" berserkers?

 

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Originally posted by Folt-leabhar
Thanks,
More I'd like to know:

1.What was the meaning of the Van/Vani/Vanir and the Disir
2.Ull or Ullr, Njord, the brothers of Odin Vile and Ve, Odins wife Frigg and Höner are some gods whose role I'm not aware of.

Njord was the god of the sea and the god of the sailors, Höner- I think it's spelled Höder (I could be wrong though). Höder was a blind god who was fooled by Loke to kill Balder. The three brothers Oden, Vile, Ve created Midgård out of a giant and his blood and Odin was of course the most powerful god.
I don't know much about the others.

 

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The Vanir were older gods who lived here when the Aesir came. There was a war between the gods but they finally made peace. Many of the pagan gods are Vanir and not Aesir, making the term Asatru and so on really not apply to Viking religion. The greatest or most well-known of the Vanir is Frey, god of peace and fertility and his sister Freya, goddess of love. The Disir were female spirits, not as powerful as gods but very important in everyday life. Also in Viking mythology there existed any number of 'wee ones', strange creatures in the woods etc etc.

Ull was a god of hunting if I'm not mistaken. I think that he along with Tyr probably 'peaked' a bit before Viking times. The brothers of Odin, Vile and Ve, don't AFAIK really appear in any further tales and don't have any significant powers. They would appear to be there simply for esthetic purposes, since it sounds good to mention 'Vodin, Vile and Ve' since Odin had traditionally a v-sound (Wotan etc). Frigg isn't very spectacular, I think she kept the apples that made the gods eternally young, or was that someone else? She isn't really part of any colorful stories.

 

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Originally posted by The Brain

Frigg isn't very spectacular, I think she kept the apples that made the gods eternally young, or was that someone else? She isn't really part of any colorful stories.

I think it was Idun that kept the golden apples that kept the gods young.

 

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Originally posted by Karolinen

I think it was Idun that kept the golden apples that kept the gods young.

Yes, of course, thank you.

 

[Vandelay]

Frigg is sometimes considered as a just a variant of Freya. I think that Frigg etymologically is linked with fens and marches and since depositing offerings in wetlands is very common in Nordic pre-history there has been speculation as to her links with the Nerthus described by Tacitus. Otherwise Nerthus is considered to have changed into the male Vanir Njord (father of Frey and Freya).

Ull is also the god of skiing (besides the hunt). His cult seems to have been insignificant but there are many Swedish theophoric place-names with an Ull component e.g. Ultuna and Ullevi.

As an aside one should always consider that the vast majority of our knowledge comes from 13th cenury Christian writers (e.g. Snorre Sturlasson) who probably strained to bring a semblance of order to a mythology with dozens of local variations.

/Vandelay

 

[Folt-leabhar]

What would be the best sources for viking mythologies, something similar to finnish Kalevala?
I recall reading a comic books called Valhalla,by some scandinavian lad, when I was a kid. They were very similar to what I have heard here, with a little humour though, and I remember they were quite good. Does anyone know who it was created by, I think they made a cartoon movie from it.

 

[Folt-leabhar]

Originally posted by mzalar
Follow up on the beserkir line:


Can anyone else come up with "modern" berserkers?

I can't think of any "modern" berserkers, at least when it comes to wars and such. Perhaps suicide bombers in some ways, charging to almost certain death without caring much for themselves.

 

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Originally posted by Folt-leabhar
What would be the best sources for viking mythologies, something similar to finnish Kalevala?
I recall reading a comic books called Valhalla,by some scandinavian lad, when I was a kid. They were very similar to what I have heard here, with a little humour though, and I remember they were quite good. Does anyone know who it was created by, I think they made a cartoon movie from it.

Ok I just went and fund the two I had.
It seams that they are made by a man called Peter Madsen, and that the publisher is called INTERPRESSE (might have been different in Finland).
All of this proberly not very useful, since they are rather old.
Anyway good books, who was my first childhood introduction to the Nordic gods.
About the movie, yes they made a movie that you can still see in Danish television from time to time.

 

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Originally posted by Folt-leabhar
What would be the best sources for viking mythologies, something similar to finnish Kalevala?

The two most important sources are:

"The Elder Edda" (also called "Edda Sæmundar" or "The Poetic Edda"). A collection of poems about the Norse gods and heroes. This book was written in the 13th century by some unknown author, but is supposed to be copied from an older source.

"Snorre Edda" (sometimes called "The Younger Edda"). A book written by the Icelandic chief Snorre Sturlasson about 1220 AD. This book includes several of the old myths, and Snorre wrote the book to both educate people in the old art of "skaldskap" (Norse poetry) and to make sure that the knowledge of the old myths wasn't forgotten by new generations.

In addition, there are sources that at least to some extend can give us some complemental info about the old gods, like Snorre Sturlasson's "Ynglingesaga", Saxo Grammaticus "Danmarks Riges Krønike" ("The Chronicle of Denmark") and the Icelandic saga-literature.