Viking Dublin in Old Gods

[unmerged(644331)]

So with the upcoming Old Gods expansion, I would love to see something addressed that's been bothering me...

As of the early to middle 19th century, Dublin (Ireland) was founded by Viking Invaders. The Vikings stuck around, mostly keeping to themselves in Dublin, until the Norman Invasion in the 12th century. Ideally, the map and politics of the region should reflect this. The county culture should be Norse and the religion should be Pagan, and they should be led by a Norseman. With the upcoming Viking features, this should make the region very interesting at the 867 start date.

Anyone agree?

 

[riadach]

So with the upcoming Old Gods expansion, I would love to see something addressed that's been bothering me...

As of the early to middle 19th century, Dublin (Ireland) was founded by Viking Invaders. The Vikings stuck around, mostly keeping to themselves in Dublin, until the Norman Invasion in the 12th century. Ideally, the map and politics of the region should reflect this. The county culture should be Norse and the religion should be Pagan, and they should be led by a Norseman. With the upcoming Viking features, this should make the region very interesting at the 867 start date.

Anyone agree?

No .

Well, yes with a qualification. There should certainly be either forts or cities along the Irish coast held by Norse leaders, but these were still only 30 years old, so it is unlikely that enough settlement had occurred to making the hinterlands identifably Norse. I would put norse held cities or forts into Irish provinces, only not subject to the rulers of those provinces. Last think I want to see is a map where Thomond, Ormond and Dublin are given in entirety to Vikings, especially when these were governed by the important septs of the Dal gCais, the Eoghanacht Chaisil and the Síl nAedo Sláine of Breagha.

But there should be large Viking Armies running around the place.

 

[Thure]

The province Dublin should be norse and should have a Norse count.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_of_Dublin

The King of Dublin at this time was Norse.

 

[unmerged(370476)]

I'm going to side with Riadach here - the CK II province of Dublin contains a great deal of hinterland outside of the areas of Norse settlement. The majority of the population in 867 would unquestionably be Irish, and the majority would certainly be Catholic. If religion and culture were on a holding rather than provincial basis this would be an entirely different discussion.

I do agree that if done right, it will be a great deal of fun to play when the DLC arrives.

 

[TheRevanchist]

As of the early to middle 19th century, Dublin (Ireland) was founded by Viking Invaders.

Typo?

 

[dorukdorucu]

Correct me if i'm wrong but isn't Dublin (Or some other irish county, maybe Leinster?) already Norwegian in the game?

 

[RedRalphWiggum]

Correct me if i'm wrong but isn't Dublin (Or some other irish county, maybe Leinster?) already Norwegian in the game?

It is

 

[unmerged(370476)]

Correct me if i'm wrong but isn't Dublin (Or some other irish county, maybe Leinster?) already Norwegian in the game?

It is, but something that makes a degree of sense in 1066 does not automatically make it backwards equivalent to 867.

 

[vyshan]

Could not the city of dublin be ruled by the norse while leaving the province it self to the irish?

 

[smeggy]

Could not the city of dublin be ruled by the norse while leaving the province it self to the irish?

CK2 has culture as a county characteristic. Ontopic, you could watch http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_of_the_Vikings, where they do this genetic research and find only the islands north and west of scotland had any noticable Viking population/genes.

 

[unmerged(370476)]

Could not the city of dublin be ruled by the norse while leaving the province it self to the irish?

That would certainly be the most historically correct option. Have the province culturally Irish, but most of the holdings Norse ruled.

 

[riadach]

The province Dublin should be norse and should have a Norse count.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_of_Dublin

The King of Dublin at this time was Norse.

These seems to refer to the town. The majority of the area called dublin in the game was not Dublin or under control of the king of Dublin, but rather Breagha under the control of the king Flann mac Conaing, who theoretically was an unsuccessful challenger to the high-kingship.

 

[gornard]

Its kind of a problem. The viking settlements where quite powerful on the irish scene, especially dublin. I suppose one solution is to make them independent cities within the county. But afaik they had hereditary titles (and you could also get the weird situation of a viking serene republic of meath). A compromise, considering the importance of the norse in ireland and how inert barons tend to be would be to have dublin as a county level feudal title (an independent irish barony in the same county could also be an option) and have the cities of limerick, wexford etc. as vassals to it (just the cities, not the counties). This would mean that norse power in ireland could be present without sidelining the importance of local irish rulers in those regions.

Personally i'd also like to see a titular King of the Foreigners title as creatable.

 

[riadach]

Its kind of a problem. The viking settlements where quite powerful on the irish scene, especially dublin. I suppose one solution is to make them independent cities within the county. But afaik they had hereditary titles (and you could also get the weird situation of a viking serene republic of meath). A compromise, considering the importance of the norse in ireland and how inert barons tend to be would be to have dublin as a county level feudal title (an independent irish barony in the same county could also be an option) and have the cities of limerick, wexford etc. as vassals to it (just the cities, not the counties). This would mean that norse power in ireland could be present without sidelining the importance of local irish rulers in those regions.

Personally i'd also like to see a titular King of the Foreigners title as creatable.

I don't think Norse power in Ireland was a result of what they were capable of producing in their fortifications. It was to do with a group of individuals pillaging throughout Scotland and ireland and living off their loot. I think Norse power would be better implimented using the landless characters, and giving them permanent invasion armies them to pillage to demand tribute, rather than by granting them county holdings.

 

[Hibernian]

Just as a note, I believe it is actually possible to set the culture and religion of a holding separately from that of the whole county. I've never tried it myself, but I've heard modders doing it on occasion. So you could make Dublin county Irish Catholic, but make the city Norse Pagan.

 

[unmerged(370476)]

Just as a note, I believe it is actually possible to set the culture and religion of a holding separately from that of the whole county. I've never tried it myself, but I've heard modders doing it on occasion. So you could make Dublin county Irish Catholic, but make the city Norse Pagan.

That's interesting, I hadn't heard of that - did they mod the UI as well so the player could tell they had a different culture/religion in one of their holdings within the province?

 

[Hibernian]

That's interesting, I hadn't heard of that - did they mod the UI as well so the player could tell they had a different culture/religion in one of their holdings within the province?

I don't know, really only ever heard of it in passing, don't know any details, just know it's possible.

 

[Darkgamma]

No it's not.

 

[coando]

Holding culture and religion are determined by title holder. Give a Welsh Catholic control of a barony and bishopric in Cairo, and he can start making longbow ranges and the temple image will be a church, not a mosque - even if the province is Egyptian Shiite.

Not really useful for any purpose though as far as I can tell. Give a Scottish character one of your baronies and sure, he can make some Schiltrons to give you more pikes... but odds are sooner or later he'll convert to liege culture, at which point the schiltrons are gone. Mostly of significance when holdings in a single county have split allegiance.

 

[gornard]

I don't think Norse power in Ireland was a result of what they were capable of producing in their fortifications. It was to do with a group of individuals pillaging throughout Scotland and ireland and living off their loot. I think Norse power would be better implimented using the landless characters, and giving them permanent invasion armies them to pillage to demand tribute, rather than by granting them county holdings.

Well i'd assume they would use the prestige based viking invasion system that the rest of the norse will. But they still need territorial power for them to act properly in the game. A substantial part of their real world power came from their cities and the trade that resulted.