View on Gender doctrine could du with some expansion

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Karlington

Field Marshal
92 Badges
May 1, 2017
7.296
13.714
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Season pass
  • Surviving Mars
  • BATTLETECH
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Premium edition
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Deluxe edition
  • Sengoku
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
  • Empire of Sin
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Dungeonland
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
I'm not sure their opinion aren't biased. There can be misplaced romanticism, believe in constant progress of humanity, or feeling of superiority ("we surely better than this savages of the past"). There are plenty of people who are genuinely frightened by mere possibility that either of this isn't true. *
Well, there are biased and/or frightened people who hold virtually any opinion that's out there, so that's nothing unique to that particular viewpoint. :)




Besides, whole point there is to represent cultures that, while wasn't female-dominated, had some elements of equality, to lesser or larger degree. (or create something truly bizarre :D )
Let's remember this is a game meant to be played for fun. Regardless of how cultures and faiths were traditionally, let's say a player wants to reform and create a faith that has female councilors, equal lords, male commanders, and female knights. Should he be able to? Absolutely, IMO. Such a society probably never existed, because that's random as heck. :D But if it's fun for a player to create it then I don't see why not. :)




* thing is, a lot of places now has worst situation with women (and human in general) rights than they had in distant ages. In fact, early middle ages had arguably more democracy and liberties than "enlightenment" age.
I'm not sure exactly what you are saying here since your first sentence compares today to "distant ages," while the second compares "early middles ages" to "enlightenment" age. If by "enlightenment" age you mean today, then certainly that's wrong (if you are referring to the western world). If you are referring to the Age of Enlightenment then I'm no expert, but I believe you're mistaken there too.

Wikipedia has an article on the topic and the first paragraph goes:

"The role of women in the Enlightenment is debated. It is acknowledged that women during this era were not considered of equal status to men, and much of their work and effort were suppressed. Even so, salons, coffeehouses, debating societies, academic competitions and print all became avenues for women to socialize, learn and discuss enlightenment ideas. For many women, these avenues furthered their roles in society and created stepping stones for future progress."

Of course other areas of the world may be different, like Saudi Arabia, where women still need a male guardian and only recently became able to drive cars.
 
Last edited:

Orphalesion

Colonel
45 Badges
Dec 13, 2017
1.012
923
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Age of Wonders
  • Age of Wonders II
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
*meaningless post just to pop up the thread*

It's funny that Iroquois (political matriarchy) had, basically more restricted gender roles than cultures that stereotypically associated with such restrictions (namely medieval Europe and Middle East) :p
Somewhat related: Hyper-masculine Sparta was the only place in Ancient Greece where women had any rights, authority or agency.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
May 23, 2020
571
1.538
I'm not sure exactly what you are saying here since your first sentence compares today to "distant ages," while the second compares "early middles ages" to "enlightenment" age.
Duh, this two sentences just referred to different aspects of the same general trend (which is, some sort of universal societal evolution many people believe in is a myth, and any societal changes are random and unpredictable):
1) Notable example of past-present contrast is pre-islamic (and even early islamic) Persia. Female education, multiple female commanders and warriors, general cultural and religious tolerance. Now compare this with their modern counterpart. Similar situation with some other nations.
2) "Age of Enlightenment" wasn't all that enlightened, while "Dark age" wasn't all that darck. West moved from multitude semi autonomous democratic communes (some with elements of direct democracy), and elective monarchies - to centralised absolute monarchies. Other aspects of this phenomenon, in England women had right for personal property and business up until norman conquest (after that only by using legal loopholes), and this restriction remained until way after AoE. Similarly, France moved from almost equal succession to male-only. In religious matters, catholics originally had deaconesses, and abbesses had much more power. There are plenty of such examples.

Even so, salons, coffeehouses, debating societies, academic competitions and print all became avenues for women to socialize, learn and discuss enlightenment ideas
Sound a bit strange, traditional medieval manors was designed to accommodate female socialisation events...
 
  • 4
Reactions:

Karlington

Field Marshal
92 Badges
May 1, 2017
7.296
13.714
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Season pass
  • Surviving Mars
  • BATTLETECH
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Premium edition
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Deluxe edition
  • Sengoku
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
  • Empire of Sin
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Dungeonland
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
Duh, this two sentences just referred to different aspects of the same general trend (which is, some sort of universal societal evolution many people believe in is a myth, and any societal changes are random and unpredictable):
Some OT advice: "Duh-ing" people just because they don't get understand 100% of what you wrote and politely mention that is usually not conducive to fruitful discussion. ;) That being said, I'm not going to make any more of an issue of it. :)




1) Notable example of past-present contrast is pre-islamic (and even early islamic) Persia. Female education, multiple female commanders and warriors, general cultural and religious tolerance. Now compare this with their modern counterpart. Similar situation with some other nations.
2) "Age of Enlightenment" wasn't all that enlightened, while "Dark age" wasn't all that darck. West moved from multitude semi autonomous democratic communes (some with elements of direct democracy), and elective monarchies - to centralised absolute monarchies. Other aspects of this phenomenon, in England women had right for personal property and business up until norman conquest (after that only by using legal loopholes), and this restriction remained until way after AoE. Similarly, France moved from almost equal succession to male-only. In religious matters, catholics originally had deaconesses, and abbesses had much more power. There are plenty of such examples.
You forgot to provide even a single source, friend. :)




Sound a bit strange, traditional medieval manors was designed to accommodate female socialisation events...
Right, but let's look again at the quote I posted:

"Even so, salons, coffeehouses, debating societies, academic competitions and print all became avenues for women to socialize, learn and discuss enlightenment ideas. For many women, these avenues furthered their roles in society and created stepping stones for future progress."

Don't you see that that goes way beyond social events at the manor for the local female nobility? Both in terms of locales, the nature of the interactions, and the various classes of society that are afforded these opportunities.
 
  • 1Like
  • 1
Reactions:

Nevars

General
92 Badges
May 29, 2015
1.827
3.162
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Crusader Kings III Referal
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Season pass
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Premium edition
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Deluxe edition
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
Ok so I just found those options. I didn't realize there were male/female preference laws available. Starting as an Insular Christian, and making a new faith with equal gender doctrine, the gender law defaults to equal. Male preference would lead to the desired outcome, and maybe that should be the default! But with an Irish tribal start that's not possible until feudalism. It appears you need crown authority to change succession laws, unless I'm missing something else.
It's useless anyway if you already have issue with your wife has multiple husband cuz it means that your wife is landed and will default her own law to equal so she would still has multiple husband anyway.
 
May 23, 2020
571
1.538
It's useless anyway if you already have issue with your wife has multiple husband cuz it means that your wife is landed and will default her own law to equal so she would still has multiple husband anyway.
I think this also can be divided into separate law. There can be a lot of unusual possibilities (like extreme matriarchy, where up to 4 women share single husband, or even consort, as a breeder).
 
May 23, 2020
571
1.538
So, it seems that some of this changes is happening, now that Shieldmaiden/Shieldswain trait are introduced, and with military gender doctrine being separated into culture. Although, i still think that there can be more flexibility...
 
  • 1
Reactions:
May 23, 2020
571
1.538
Some OT advice: "Duh-ing" people just because they don't get understand 100% of what you wrote and politely mention that is usually not conducive to fruitful discussion. ;) That being said, I'm not going to make any more of an issue of it. :)
Learning english in internet has some disadvantages. Besides, that wasn't first time you misinterpreted my words like that, i was pised of when i writed this.

You forgot to provide even a single source, friend. :)
I already did, in numerous other threads
As for other
(it really interesting how this was reacted to at the time.. and hove much later retellings interpreted this event:D )
"Women were appointed to theAfter Order of the Garter almost from the start. In all, 68 women were appointed between 1358 and 1488... After 1488, no other appointments of women are known"
"the Order of the Blessed Virgin Mary was founded by two Bolognese nobles Loderingo degli Andalò and Catalano di Guido in 1233, and approved by Pope Alexander IV in 1261. It was the first religious order of knighthood to grant the rank of militissa to women. However, this order was suppressed by Pope Sixtus V in 1558"
Of course, this was mostly honorary titles, but knighting was big deal nevertheless. And "order of the Hatchet" is other thing entirely.
"Although Wilton Abbey was a Benedictine nunnery, it held its lands from the king by knight service. The Abbess' knights were her tenants, who in turn held land from the Abbey by knight service. Usually the abbess fulfilled her duty to the king by scutage. But she had knights with King Henry III on his 1223 Welsh campaign, and at the Siege of Bedford Castle the following year. Between 1277 and 1327 she offered knight service at least four times"
There was also example of women operating war machines on the wall of besieged city - "His head was smashed by a stone from a mangonel, operated, according to one source, by the donas e tozas e mulhers ("ladies and girls and women") of Toulouse"
(interestingly, England had like 4 1/2 ruling queens, who did nothing to change situation)
"Twelve years earlier, a rule against succession by women, arguably derived from the Salic Law, had been recognised – with some dissent – as controlling succession to the French throne"
Don't you see that that goes way beyond social events at the manor for the local female nobility? Both in terms of locales, the nature of the interactions, and the various classes of society that are afforded these opportunities.
One source, with reference to guest lists from accounting books, cite multiple examples of noblewomen traveling independently from their husbands, including at least one who was escorting by group of reach commoner women (presumably they had events for they own circle, which didn't required such escort). And dont forget that enlightenment was trendy, same way chivalric romances once was.;)
 
Last edited:
  • 1Like
  • 1
Reactions:
May 23, 2020
571
1.538
So I guess part of the reason for this thread is now outdated. Since we are getting a martial gender doctrine but for cultures instead of religions
Partly. There still no intermediate points for any doctrine. and Shieldmaiden/ShieldSwain will most likely tied only to traditions, which exclude "Jeanne d'Archétype"
 
  • 1Haha
  • 1
Reactions:

Unknown Sage

First Lieutenant
48 Badges
Apr 17, 2016
225
786
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • PDXCon 2019 "King"
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
Partly. There still no intermediate points for any doctrine. and Shieldmaiden/ShieldSwain will most likely tied only to traditions, which exclude "Jeanne d'Archétype"
True. So let's see we now will have 3 gender 'doctrines'. One for rulership, one for clergy, and one for military. Each of which only has the options of male, both, and female. (with slightly varying names so I generalised them a bit). Since we both agree there could be more intermediate points let's instead discuss what those intermediate ones should do.

So for the general rulership one I think it seems pretty straightforward to have the inbetween options (inbetween male-equal and inbetween equal-female) unlock the their respective gender only, gender preference succession laws in addition to equal. Additionally halve the 'wrong' gender ruler penalty to -5 instead of -10. Then maybe allow 'wrong' gender councillors and allow granting them titles? Not sure about this though since the more you remove the limits the more it starts looking a lot like the equal doctrine. Any suggestions on this one would be nice.

As for clerical gender. I saw someone mention having an option that allowed both genders to be priests, but only one gender to be the head of faith. I think that could be a decent intermediate option. Perhaps have this also make it so that these intermediate ones skew the distribution of genders in the clergy to maybe 67% dominant gender and 33% non-dominant? Really the only thing this one does is state whether a gender can be a priest currently. So there isn't much else to add to this range.

You mentioned the shieldmaiden/shieldswain thing. I suppose you could have the martial intermediate choices activate this mechanic for your culture. But aside from that I feel like there isn't much to add for intermediate options here given the binary nature of the question of whether a particular gender can be a knight/commander.

There was mention of separating the councillor position requirement from the general one. But I think this doesn't really make too much sense. We have 6 council positions. Of which 3: Spouse, Bishop, and Spymaster currently do not follow the gender doctrine due to being based on well your spouses gender, the clergy gender, and spymaster can always be both. Similarly given the new martial doctrine I'm going to assume that the marshal will be based on the cultural martial gender. Leaving only the chancellor, and the steward. Both of which I think fit quite nicely under the rulership main gender doctrine

I think the points mentioned above are really all that makes sense to add. But I would love to hear more opinions on this.
 
May 23, 2020
571
1.538
So for the general rulership one I think it seems pretty straightforward to have the inbetween options (inbetween male-equal and inbetween equal-female) unlock the their respective gender only, gender preference succession laws in addition to equal. Additionally halve the 'wrong' gender ruler penalty to -5 instead of -10. Then maybe allow 'wrong' gender councillors and allow granting them titles? Not sure about this though since the more you remove the limits the more it starts looking a lot like the equal doctrine. Any suggestions on this one would be nice.
There was mention of separating the councillor position requirement from the general one. But I think this doesn't really make too much sense. We have 6 council positions. Of which 3: Spouse, Bishop, and Spymaster currently do not follow the gender doctrine due to being based on well your spouses gender, the clergy gender, and spymaster can always be both. Similarly given the new martial doctrine I'm going to assume that the marshal will be based on the cultural martial gender. Leaving only the chancellor, and the steward. Both of which I think fit quite nicely under the rulership main gender doctrine
Well, CK2 had Status of Women law, which had 5 stages, including total equality. Custom pagan religion with "agnatic clans" doctrine add one further level which is more intolerant than "traditional" status. For female dominated religion logically there should be symmetrical ones. (interestingly, there was no "status of men" law for "Enatic Clans", making it the least tolerant option)

As was already mentioned, in catholic Europe, as example, women should be able to be realm priests for counts (as abbesses), and female commanders should be more likely than female knights.
 
  • 4Like
  • 1
Reactions:
May 23, 2020
571
1.538
There some interesting info from domsday book (late 11th c english census). When commoners owned large landholdings they wasn't named, usually they gust called "free man, one" (or two, or whatever, in case of joint ownership), more rarely by some trait - profesion, ethnicity (which is actually strange...) and the like (one of examples - blind man). Now we have "wife, free man's" (presumably their husbands had their own land, or owned land jointly), or free woman (probably heads of families). Of course, information on pre-norman period are limited there, but we see interesting contrast with later period, when only noblewomen had land. Yet in game both would have identical doctrines...
 
  • 1
Reactions:
May 23, 2020
571
1.538
  • 1Like
  • 1Haha
Reactions: