Video: Let's Play Return of the Elves

[Selmack]

Resistance work on a bit of a logarithmic scale. So low numbers give higher scaled protection than the higher numbers do. Eg, 25 resistance might give 30% actual resistance yet 100 resistance might give 85% actual resistance. The only way to get 100% resistance is to have immunity.

I understand the math is different. What I meant to say is I tried to use healer shield on a unit that had masterwork armor and there was no effect. The shield did not apply.

I realize I sound confused at times. I am. At first I thought you could apply things over and over to get a greater resistance. Then realized each item, could only be applied one. But in this case and since then I have been looking to see what a unit has first, then applying new perk to verify that it applies.

I have also realized I don't like the size of the perk pictures with each unit. They are so small and it is hard to see clearly what a unit has so I can apply more. I restarted game with the auto save game and am at move 90 something again. The units that have perks have so many it take forever to look at each. I am trying to just look at the pictures and hope I did not miss anything. I have the healer for example perked to where she can take a city in 3 turns alone and can attack and defend against many units with little damage. It is hard to see with so many perks, what more I can add.

I do wish spells were not so slow also. If you have the mana why not be able to use it for units or whatever. I guess the computer units would overwhelm you if there was not a limit. But as I have said, I still am surprised at how quickly the computer units can use spells over and over than attack more than one unit.

 

[Selmack]

Regarding the current video - I guess it is all in the perspective. I am enjoying the videos. Learning something new each time.

Still have not found a way to make nevril armor but am seeing so many similarities to my current game.

The huge build up and sneak attack has finally happened in this last video. I need to locate where "create artifact" came from. Oh, and I used thunderstorm thinking I could hit the city and any invisible units and did huge damage to my own troops. Did no realize spells affected friendly units. Also, realize in this video you can see who is at war with who. And although you have done more in less moves than I have some how, you are having the same issues with low gold and food but have huge mana which I can not seem to do - and now see the need for. I hope I can figure out how you are creating such high numbers of gold, food, and mana.

I am interested to see what will happen when you win in another world. I want to see the perks you get? And I want to see in other leaders can go into the new worlds or not. The whole other world thing is so new - I just want to see how that plays out.

Also, you have so many artifacts. Is there a may to make the sellers show sooner or should I be trying to find a way to make them to use - again another element I need to learn.

Ships is the last thing (for the moment): Ships are so weak. I always get attacked by a see monster of some sort and waste ships so I am just keeping them close and defending. I was amazing to see the huge fleet you ran into in this video. Had no idea there could be such a battle at see. I need to rethink my ship ideas. I was only going to use them to attack land units at sea.

And the immune thing at the end. I was amazed also you took such a good unit alone into other world. Is it possible to add enough perks to make a unit immune or is completely immune just a quality of some units?

I am looking forward to future videos!!!

Thanks!!!!!!!

 

[Selmack]

I am watching the earlier videos now and see you are saying many of the things I have been saying.

For example: The picture of the group attacking you covers the attack and there is no "Ledger" as you call it to let you know what cities are building and what troops you have and where they are. As the game was in an earlier version in the videos I am watching now I can only assume they have decided against making the changes are have so many bugs to deal with, they have no time to make the changes yet.

Also I saw you right click off unit so not to move them by accident. I have had that problem from the beginning. I wish the game auto-clicked off the units. As you have to right click anyway, that extra click back on a unit you want would not be an issue and I would not accidentally move units by mistake.

I look forward to new videos as well as watching the remainder of the old as I have time. I learn something new each time. And do continue to see you running into the same issues I do. Difference is you can look at the building list and know what each does and where to you can go in the next city upgrade and I am still to new to see that far ahead so I just guess in many cases.

I am glad my current game has gone so long so I can see more of what is available.

I am interested to see how the artifacts will play in.

Question: Are you still avoiding the other worlds as they don't play into the win of the game and the rewards are to small?

Thanks!!!!!

Final note: The forum times out to quickly. Just typing this short reply, it timed out. If I had not copied the text before hitting post reply - I would have lost it completely.

 

[Das123]

If you open up the unit card for any unit you can see the perks much more easily (right click on a unit). Hover over the perks to see what each does.

Nevril is great protection especially against elemental damage so it is a real bonus to find it early. I usually don't come across this until much later.

Gold food and mana are all about city management. You need to specialise cities based on race, location, and resources. Also the race you play has a big say in what you will build and focus on.

You need to clear out sea-lanes before sending ships out in them. Sea Monsters have a sight range of 3 where your ships will most likely have a sight range of 2 - so they can see you before you see them. One good way to clear them if you don't have powerful water or flying units is to get a high power unit and cast Water Walking on it. Then the unit can walk across the water and deal with the monsters.

The other worlds are great for getting bonuses and resources so they are good to get into if you can afford the time. I like to clear one out early if possible before too many monsters spawn. In my current game the Ghost is the only unit I sent down there because he is immune to all except elemental damage. He would struggle against the pink player. I can't bring an army down there yet because they are needed on the surface. So I guess in this game I'm just using the other world to help the ghost level up while I deal with the surface.

[video=youtube_share;my6y7ORT9X8]http://youtu.be/my6y7ORT9X8[/video]

 

[Das123]

[video=youtube_share;UkU_43mnaSM]http://youtu.be/UkU_43mnaSM[/video]

 

[The Apprentice]

You need to clear out sea-lanes before sending ships out in them. Sea Monsters have a sight range of 3 where your ships will most likely have a sight range of 2 - so they can see you before you see them. One good way to clear them if you don't have powerful water or flying units is to get a high power unit and cast Water Walking on it. Then the unit can walk across the water and deal with the monsters.

Just to point out that Sea Monsters have a default sight range of 2, and like all monster units may pick up the +1 sight range as they level up. When exploring the water with weak units, I check every Sea Monster I find to see how close I can safely get. (Bearing in mind that sometimes the reef will spawn another Sea Monster within range of your unit, screwing up your placement anyway!)

 

[Selmack]

If you open up the unit card for any unit you can see the perks much more easily (right click on a unit). Hover over the perks to see what each does.

Nevril is great protection especially against elemental damage so it is a real bonus to find it early. I usually don't come across this until much later.

Gold food and mana are all about city management. You need to specialise cities based on race, location, and resources. Also the race you play has a big say in what you will build and focus on.

You need to clear out sea-lanes before sending ships out in them. Sea Monsters have a sight range of 3 where your ships will most likely have a sight range of 2 - so they can see you before you see them. One good way to clear them if you don't have powerful water or flying units is to get a high power unit and cast Water Walking on it. Then the unit can walk across the water and deal with the monsters.

The other worlds are great for getting bonuses and resources so they are good to get into if you can afford the time. I like to clear one out early if possible before too many monsters spawn. In my current game the Ghost is the only unit I sent down there because he is immune to all except elemental damage. He would struggle against the pink player. I can't bring an army down there yet because they are needed on the surface. So I guess in this game I'm just using the other world to help the ghost level up while I deal with the surface.

As I hope I said, I gave up on elven game with all the crashes but started a human game. I have had no issues with it and have learned a lot. Did finally find nevril. Also found places to build temples to gods and did something correct as a beachmaster appeared in capital without being created. Also, I have more reputation spells as well.

Human game is going well.

Question: I have been creating cities as you said but I am in negative with gold or something in many. I see they are still leveling up slowly though. Is that an issue or just the overall total of all I should think about. Even with a better understanding up the trees, I still have a horrible time keeping gold. I am truly amazed at the level of gold you have in you posted game. Also, it really appears that if I just level up the god units - healer, ogor, vampire, and beastmaster I can almost beat anything. I just wish I had the gold and spells to level them up when I get them.

Lastly, is there any exact to the spells? Seems like every game they start different and appear randomly. Is there a list of spells and how they should appear as there is with buildings?

Lastly, do you think they will create upgrades for the attacking and defending building as there are for other fighting units? It would be great to have the magic tower level and receive additional qualities.

Thanks for your help!!!

Hope I have time to see your new videos later.

 

[Selmack]

With your last two videos I see your game is going like mine. I assume by now this must be stardard in this game when your moves are in the 90s. Massive units moved in and out - replaced by other when they are hurt. I see that in every game.

Are your units in portal all invisible? If so, does that mean even if they attack, they still can not be seen as long as you keep them back?

I know you have other videos which I am trying to watch as time permits but using the google search has help to see what all perks can do as I am running into so many now and they dont say in advance what they do in the building descriptions. So I don't know weather to get water of the snake or build another building on the spot.

Also, have you ever started a spell - then come back to the game later and forgot what you started - I have done that more than once and you can not see anywhere what the name of the spell is so you can get an idea later what you might have been trying to do.

As far as the gods offering serve, is this random or is there a way to have a certain one become available?

I answered my question from earlier when I saw your cities have many negative numbers in them also. It must be the total of all you are watching. I'm still am not sure what make a city grow faster though. I need to look into that more carefully.

Lastly, are you using your spells to add more perks on your units or trying to put them in more fights early so they receive the quicker. I wondered why you did not add perks to your last god you received other than maybe invisible. I have been trying to create the perk spells quickly and add them early to create a higher defence and attack. But in your game you do have far more mana and other resources than I can ever keep so you are managing your resources so much better than I am.

I could build so many super units now like assassins and beastmaster for 700 gold but I just can't keep the gold. I had to destroy unit so I would not lose the vampire god because he was so expensive. With perks he has been a great help. If the computer player would slow down and not make runes (I think) I may have a chance with the vampire and the healer units.

Thanks for the help!!!!

 

[unmerged(170187)]

I assume by now this must be stardard in this game when your moves are in the 90s. Massive units moved in and out - replaced by other when they are hurt. I see that in every game.

This is common in most matches as well as in other tactical games were you can heal your units on the side lines. Damage is mostly meaningless unless you can kill the enemy unit. And the lose of a single unit is much more costly then the lose of a few HP. The result is trying to keep fresh units near the front to soak up damage while damaged units fall back to heal up.

The only way to really prevent this from happening as a natural result of the mechanic is to not allow healing. Then people will simply move forward their damaged units to soak up a last bit of damage while keeping their units in the back fresh. I've played a lot of various tactics games and this is the way it always tends to break down.

The only time this isn't quite true is in tactical games where units are carried over from battle to battle. Thus seriously damaged units are often withdrawn to the back in hopes they can live to the end of the match where they will be fully healed again.

The mechanics really determine which tactics are optimal and here it's the rotating front line.

EDIT: Right after posted I remembered another type of mechanic that provided sort of a happy mix. Healing units could only be done at bases and it cost a % equal to the number of HP the unit lost. Thus if a unit cost 100 gold to produce and had 3/10 HP left it would cost 70 gold to heal. Thus the attacker still hurt the other person's economy with their attack, unlike here were you only take an economic hit if the unit dies.

This mechanic tended to make it so that cheap units were left to die and more expensive units sent back to repair. There was no level up mechanic so it was not a matter of experience. Instead it was a matter of cost, give that it was hard to gather enough resources to build a new unit but the partial cost of repairs was do able given that they often didn't take as much damage as cheap units.

I know you have other videos which I am trying to watch as time permits but using the google search has help to see what all perks can do as I am running into so many now and they dont say in advance what they do in the building descriptions. So I don't know weather to get water of the snake or build another building on the spot.

http://warlockmota.wikia.com/wiki/Unit_Perks#Building_Perks

I'm still am not sure what make a city grow faster though. I need to look into that more carefully.

The cities grow at a fixed rate. There are two spells which increase the growth rate of a city but they are kind of high level and I tend to not see them until sometime after turn 90. In most cases the game is already well decided by that point.

I could build so many super units now like assassins and beastmaster for 700 gold but I just can't keep the gold. I had to destroy unit so I would not lose the vampire god because he was so expensive.

I've never lost a unit from not being able to pay upkeep. Of course I rarely am not able to pay upkeep and it tends to only apply to food or mana. Food shortage just makes non-UD cities grow slower and mana shortage just takes extra from R&D.

That being said if your at the point in the game where you have the super units you should be able to easily afford their upkeep. If you can not then your are obviously doing something wrong. You should have hundreds of gold income per turn by turn 70. And even a fairly large army of 40 units should not put you in the negatives, even if they are ALL super units because it begs the question how did you afford them in the first place?

The most common mistake for new players is not building a large enough economic base to support their forces. As a general rule any city I build to train troops should be training them constantly. If I can't afford to train them then I need to cut back on the number of troop training cities I have and build more gold cities. So if you have 4-5 cities setup to train troops in and most are sitting and not training them because you lack the gold, then it's time to scrap some of them in favor of gold production cities.

Unit production buildings have upkeep which puts a major dent in your economy so if you are not actively using them you are paying that cost for nothing. The only place this isn't really true is the mana buildings which double as mana production and unit training so you'll be stuck with them for mana output. Also buildings like Nevril armor you only need one of and they are expensive to maintain so scrap any extras you might have. Merc buildings are also nice but only if you are actively training units there, if you are not then scrap it and put up a resource building. Any building that has an upkeep cost should only be built if it is going to actively contribute to your empire the vast majority of the time.

 

[Fenryder]

While Da has a ridiculously large empire he is just floating by economically. He doesnt seem to have huge unit numbers so this is great example of how population alone can blunt ones economy. I'm not sure how the elves work but I know with undead if you dont advance to the better mana generating buildings your large pop cities eat up all your weekly mana.

 

[Yeknod]

Fun videos again, thanks!

Just a thought, can magic be used to give the ghost hero increased weapon damage v undead?

Where's the turtles, must have turtles, Go Turtles Go!

 

[Selmack]

Im obviously doing setting up wrong. Even when I manage the resources correctly at first - no matter what I do by the time the move get in the 80's and 90's the resources are low, I have very few troops, and while trying to rebuild I have to try to use the god healer or others to keep things together - and it never fails - when things are going great and I've made peace with everyone - huge unit span everwhere - in place I either can't cover or have left alone and take out cities.

I thought I was moving to fast - but I have never been able to get 40 units by move 70.

The challenge is nice though. I see something new either in buildings or units each game.

 

[unmerged(170187)]

Im obviously doing setting up wrong. Even when I manage the resources correctly at first - no matter what I do by the time the move get in the 80's and 90's the resources are low, I have very few troops, and while trying to rebuild I have to try to use the god healer or others to keep things together - and it never fails - when things are going great and I've made peace with everyone - huge unit span everwhere - in place I either can't cover or have left alone and take out cities.

I thought I was moving to fast - but I have never been able to get 40 units by move 70.

Getting 40 units by turn 70 is fairly easy. Most units take 2 turns to train and if you have at least 2 cities training units you could easily field 40 units in 40 turns. Depending on the map size and what is going on though you might not need that many units, or you might need more. I've fought the AI where I was at war with all 8 on Huge map spread across 5 different fronts and had about 60+ units.

As for resources the most important thing in the game is city specialization. In the early game it's fairly easy to get away with not doing this as the bonuses are small and hardly noticeable. However once mid game and late game hit the difference is so drastic that it's literally the difference between being broke and having hundreds of gold flowing in per turn. It is because of this major difference in the different stages of the game that cause new players to under value specialization and often leave them falling short wondering how other players can afford the high end units. Since you have given us no real details on how you setup your empire other than to say your short on cash this seems the likely cause.

To better illustrate what I mean in terms of the difference between specialized cities and non-specialized cities I'll give some figures on the cost of things. A city that is focused on Gold is going to have a Tax Office, Mint, and Bank in it giving it a +200% bonus to all gold production. This means that every craftsman guild you build in that city is going to give you an extra +9 gold to you economy. But if you decided your a little short on food or mana and figure throwing in a Farm or Mana building isn't putting that much of a dent in your economy then your wrong. Since it is effectively costing you the 9 gold you would be getting from the craftsman guild.

The same holds true of other cities types as well. The bonus to a farm city with Granary and Mill is 125% meaning each farm is getting you 6 food. But if your short on gold and think a craftsman guild for a little extra cash would be helpful then again it's going to waste. For one 2 extra food is converted into 1 gold so each farm is effectively converting into the 3 gold anyway. Plus if you have any other bonuses like spells on the city which would further increase that farms production.

For each building you place in a city that is not part of it's specialization you have to look at what your basically giving up and if it's worth it. It's really hard to give anything other than general tips when we don't know what you doing wrong.

 

[Selmack]

Getting 40 units by turn 70 is fairly easy. Most units take 2 turns to train and if you have at least 2 cities training units you could easily field 40 units in 40 turns. Depending on the map size and what is going on though you might not need that many units, or you might need more. I've fought the AI where I was at war with all 8 on Huge map spread across 5 different fronts and had about 60+ units.

As for resources the most important thing in the game is city specialization. In the early game it's fairly easy to get away with not doing this as the bonuses are small and hardly noticeable. However once mid game and late game hit the difference is so drastic that it's literally the difference between being broke and having hundreds of gold flowing in per turn. It is because of this major difference in the different stages of the game that cause new players to under value specialization and often leave them falling short wondering how other players can afford the high end units. Since you have given us no real details on how you setup your empire other than to say your short on cash this seems the likely cause.

To better illustrate what I mean in terms of the difference between specialized cities and non-specialized cities I'll give some figures on the cost of things. A city that is focused on Gold is going to have a Tax Office, Mint, and Bank in it giving it a +200% bonus to all gold production. This means that every craftsman guild you build in that city is going to give you an extra +9 gold to you economy. But if you decided your a little short on food or mana and figure throwing in a Farm or Mana building isn't putting that much of a dent in your economy then your wrong. Since it is effectively costing you the 9 gold you would be getting from the craftsman guild.

The same holds true of other cities types as well. The bonus to a farm city with Granary and Mill is 125% meaning each farm is getting you 6 food. But if your short on gold and think a craftsman guild for a little extra cash would be helpful then again it's going to waste. For one 2 extra food is converted into 1 gold so each farm is effectively converting into the 3 gold anyway. Plus if you have any other bonuses like spells on the city which would further increase that farms production.

For each building you place in a city that is not part of it's specialization you have to look at what your basically giving up and if it's worth it. It's really hard to give anything other than general tips when we don't know what you doing wrong.

As far as what I am doing wrong - I wish I knew. Seems to me in my early game, I thought I was right. Specializing cities at least. Then you talked about 40 units. So I started pumping out the units constantly. I realized if there was gold other resources low or negative did not stop creating units. Then when I took a new city the added resources worked things out lowly. In one game I was doing everything right. Peace and so on. Then as I said trees and ogres and other huge units attacked everywhere and even with the large amount of units I could not keep up. If I moved to the center to get them someone would attack and my border cities would go.

As I said, I am frustrated but I am still enjoying the game. I know with more practice I will get the idea.

Lastly, I've quit just taking any starting game position also. I have been starting in the middle - surrounded so many times I can't start well.

Today I realized I did need to add more cities that created units and to cover the border cities better. Also, I realized that if I walk into another mage's city - even if I am just walking through, it lower my relations with them. By not doing that and letting them start the negotiations I have had more peaceful times with them.

Need to find some was to take on the ogres, spides, tree better. Those spider that freeze are a bummer!!! I thought vampires and some flying units would be difficult to beat - but for me, I have an easier time defending against them. Ogres tree and spiders all at once are impossible. And they always start in so many places near so many cities.

Also, I have been playiing around with customizing mage before starting. I do much better with different customization than others. I like the extra percents on mana and other resources and I have been adding Lunard I think it is called to see what happens. So many different ways to begin.

Thanks for all the help!!!!! And thanks for continuing the videos!!!!!

 

[unmerged(170187)]

As far as what I am doing wrong - I wish I knew. Seems to me in my early game, I thought I was right. Specializing cities at least. Then you talked about 40 units. So I started pumping out the units constantly. I realized if there was gold other resources low or negative did not stop creating units. Then when I took a new city the added resources worked things out lowly. In one game I was doing everything right. Peace and so on. Then as I said trees and ogres and other huge units attacked everywhere and even with the large amount of units I could not keep up. If I moved to the center to get them someone would attack and my border cities would go.

Well what types of units did you have? Also did you have any perk upgrades on them? Personally I like to put fine armor and masterwork armor on most of my units. It greatly increases their resistance to melee/missile which are two most common damage types in the game.

The other issue might be not enough cities. You really should pack your cities in as tightly as possible to maximize the number you have and thus your income. The other bonus to tightly backed cities is you can quickly setup roads allowing units to cross your empire in a very short time. This allows you to move whole armies from one side of your empire to the other in about 1/4 the time.

 

[Fenryder]

16 & 17 are up on Da's youtube site

 

[Selmack]

Well what types of units did you have? Also did you have any perk upgrades on them? Personally I like to put fine armor and masterwork armor on most of my units. It greatly increases their resistance to melee/missile which are two most common damage types in the game.

The other issue might be not enough cities. You really should pack your cities in as tightly as possible to maximize the number you have and thus your income. The other bonus to tightly backed cities is you can quickly setup roads allowing units to cross your empire in a very short time. This allows you to move whole armies from one side of your empire to the other in about 1/4 the time.

Ok, finally got a game I could play. Started with a huge mountain background at bottom so no way to be attacked from behind. Ocean at top so easy to pick off ships. Basically, just defending the west and east borders. I think I went overboard on units though. I am specializing cities but in a negative in all but gold which is very low. Defence is great except for a couple things.

How do you defend against the elementals from other worlds? Other than the gods you get? I have the healer and the wizard I think. But I have to many portals to defend. I use them to defend ogres and other large units also. There must be a better way.

Even with units leveling well there hits are so small it is not worth attacking. I am just leveling the attacking units rather than defending cities.

Also, when you have so many cities, buildings, and units? How do you keep track of what citiy is building what and not get completely lost. There should be a way to view a list of all cities, their buildings, and which units were built where. If there is already, please let me know this also.

And there seems to be no way to deal with attacks of spirit magic also. How do you defend it?

In this game I started with +1 per turn added to level so units leveled much quicker which really helped. And used Lunard so I got many advanced spells.

I just can't get a handle on the specializing. No matter how I specialize the cities I always end up with food, mana, research in negative and gold extremely low. I think starting near water is what is keeping to gold up as you get 50% gold for each port at sea. Also, many of my cities just do not level or level very quickly. There has to be a way to increase the speed. I just have not figured it out.

As far as defence, with the +1 added to leveling and try to build buildings that help resources I've not needed to add many perks in this specific game. The perks I need like defence of spirit magic are never appear.

I've asked before about spells and perks, is there a list of how they appear and what comes next. I know where the perk googe page is - I just do not know why you start with specific spells and what spell will be next. If I know I would pick the spells what lead to more perks for units first rather than spells the attack units. Maybe I would locate a perk to defend against elementals then.

Although the Lunard perks are great they cost each turn - I know that is affecting my resources and negative issue. But they do help defend against ogre, tree, elemetals and others.

Time to check out 16 and 17.

Thanks for help!!!

 

[Selmack]

I decided to rewatch some of the first videos of this series now that I have been playing more. And I see so many things I am doing incorrectly - which is so helpful.

Amazed at the impossible level you are not getting attacked and defeated more early in the game - or that more thing larger units have not just popped up out of the blue.

Also, you have very few units early on and are concentrating soley on gold. And I do see specializing means knowing the trees and looking and thinking ahead before building in a city.

I need to print off the trees to get a better understanding of what I am missing.

Thanks for all the help!!!

 

[unmerged(490344)]

Amazed at the impossible level you are not getting attacked and defeated more early in the game - or that more thing larger units have not just popped up out of the blue.

Well, he is playing on continents with only 3 enemies. If you put it on supercontinent and max the number of mages it can get completely ridiculous.

 

[Selmack]

Well, he is playing on continents with only 3 enemies. If you put it on supercontinent and max the number of mages it can get completely ridiculous.

I watched a couple of the first videos again and realized I did not completely understand specializiing. He was talking about setting up cities just for troops and other things. Also, I realized I need a much better understanding of the trees. I started again specializing cities then run into so many issues. I just don't know in advance what can be build on special spaces like magic or ancient ruins. (It should tell you) Then I did not realize as you start building you have to wait for building. I am still waiting for black minitars and have no idea when I can build them. (Again in the game it should tell you) I don't want to hit ctrl esc and go to a google page every time I need help or stop and restart the game. Also, regarding the building tree - they are not in order in the list. Some things you have to build later are above things on the list. I noticed than in the videos also when you was looking for specific building. In game, there should be more information for the player.

Lastly, I realized I was trying to play like an advanced player. I cant beat the higher levels. If I am going to learn the trees and game and game issues, I need to play long games and get used to the game. So I lowered the play level and am playing a much longer game which is going very well. It a higher level I would be beat but at this level I have time to let the cities grow and build the more advanced troops and building.

Question: You are waiting for a build you can not build yet. A troop building, what do you build and waste a space with? Do you always choose gold since it is most important? A harbor if a sea city for the 50 percent gold? I have so many cities I am just waiting on at the moment. I don't know why you don't get the advanced troops sooner.

As I said, this game is going extremely well. I just wish there was more in-game information for the player. It is extremely frustrating!!!!!

Also frustration is this forum times out to soon when I am typing or editing a post. Have to refresh the screen and log in again. I hate that as I lose complete posts when I says I don't have permission!!!!!!!! Bummer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!