Victorious China should have an event to peace with Japan

[Vicksburg]

Dear all,

What a frustrating game when you see yourself looking into the Japanese's eyes, each one on its side of the sea... doing nothing.

The loss of Mandchouria and Korea would have meant the end of Japanese's ambition on the continent. It would have been a severe blow to the militarist junta in place, whose power partly relied on overseas victories.

Instead of that Japan currently just seat like a whiny boy, refusing any peace. With no army they can't invade you, with no navy you can't invade them. They even manage to enter the Axis, down to 20 divisions.

There should definitly be an event to fire when China has taken all of the mainland. A choice should be given to the player to keep on fighting (invasion of Japan) or annex Mandchouria (freeing or puppeting Korea in the process). That peace would give room for a final face to face between nationalists and communists.

The current situation (no one can achieve total victory) ruins the flavor of the game. You keep on repelling lamish landings on the coast, you are still obsessed enough to garrison your coasts and ultimately to build a navy to "move on".

Such event shouldn't be so difficult to implement. And it would mean so much to some of us.

SO PLEASE DEVS !!!!

 

[Dalwin]

I see no reason for Japan to not fight on. TBH if the AI were a little better this situation would not even arise very often. The Chinese should not be able to drive them from the continent. However, not only is it currently easy to do so, it is also easy to follow up with an almost immediate invasion of the Japanese islands and take the whole thing.

 

[Meglok]

I see no reason for Japan to not fight on. TBH if the AI were a little better this situation would not even arise very often. The Chinese should not be able to drive them from the continent. However, not only is it currently easy to do so, it is also easy to follow up with an almost immediate invasion of the Japanese islands and take the whole thing.

I don't know. Disregarding the plausibility of China driving Japan off the mainland, if it had happened it would have likely brought down Tojo government and brought in the moderates. They might have been willing to sue for a white peace with China to get rid of the sanctions in return for getting Manchuria and or Korea back.

A white peace option event with a 50/50 chance of the ai doing it wouldn't be a bad option. Of course either way Japan is basically then a large minor power with a snowball's chance of taking on wither Russia or the West. Or it could flip to democratic and join the Allies? I mean we are talking "what if?" in the historically unlikely event that China kicked Japan off the mainland.

 

[BurdenedWarrior]

When they work on Asia in 1.5 i have a feeling China focus tree will have an event like this. It would be cool to see/do. Good post

 

[Vicksburg]

I see no reason for Japan to not fight on. TBH if the AI were a little better this situation would not even arise very often. The Chinese should not be able to drive them from the continent. However, not only is it currently easy to do so, it is also easy to follow up with an almost immediate invasion of the Japanese islands and take the whole thing.

I agree that IRL probability for the Chinese to drive them from the continent were close to zero. But as much as Poland resisting the Nazis, or the Nazis winning the WW2. That's a game, that's a legitimate outcome for a player and the most plausible alternate ending.

Remember that today's solution is the worst : sitting doing nothing other than repelling lamish landings (easy but boring victories) while you still can't take on the communists (whom are still allies).

 

[Dalwin]

I agree that IRL probability for the Chinese to drive them from the continent were close to zero. But as much as Poland resisting the Nazis, or the Nazis winning the WW2. That's a game, that's a legitimate outcome for a player and the most plausible alternate ending.

Remember that today's solution is the worst : sitting doing nothing other than repelling lamish landings (easy but boring victories) while you still can't take on the communists (whom are still allies).

I am sorry but I cannot agree that what you say is the inevitable result. The one time I played China, I naturally drove the Japanese off the continent. Against the AI this is inevitable. Against a human opponent it is virtually impossible.

In my game against the AI I then proceeded to take the Japanese home islands with ease. There is no need for a special ending for this conflict. Not only can China end it, they can do this early enough that Japan will not have joined the Axis. This means that a peace conference will result and you will not be forced to put anti-suppression garrisons.

My number one tip for accomplishing this is to not throw away your tiny navy. Preserve it and slowly add to it. You will need it just long enough to allow a crossing at some point.

 

[Telenil]

I think the devs acknowledged it would be a good addition, in a stream a few months ago. Don't hold your breath though, the next DLC/patch will be about Europe.

 

[Louella]

@Sleight of Hand has this event in their Vanilla+ mod. If China drives back Japan hard enough, there is a peace, that iirc results in Korea becoming a de-militarised zone.

ofc, once the war with Japan ends, the Chinese Civil War restarts some time later, so there's that to contend with as well.

 

[Vicksburg]

I am sorry but I cannot agree that what you say is the inevitable result. The one time I played China, I naturally drove the Japanese off the continent. Against the AI this is inevitable. Against a human opponent it is virtually impossible.

In my game against the AI I then proceeded to take the Japanese home islands with ease. There is no need for a special ending for this conflict. Not only can China end it, they can do this early enough that Japan will not have joined the Axis. This means that a peace conference will result and you will not be forced to put anti-suppression garrisons.

My number one tip for accomplishing this is to not throw away your tiny navy. Preserve it and slowly add to it. You will need it just long enough to allow a crossing at some point.

Does Germany really need the bitter peace event ? They could invade all USSR after all...

Should Germany create Vichy France ? She could take it all after all...

Should USSR only take Carelia ? Etc.

Many players are looking for historical plausibility. If invading Mandchouria is unlikely, landing in Japan is historically impossible («gamey» I would say).

First, let's remember that a defeated Japan in the mainland has nothing to hope anymore. Secondly, the PLAYER should have the choice. Keep on fighting ? Truce with Japan ?

I just want to play the way it would have been, in all likelihood, if China had won war in the mainland.

 

[Vicksburg]

@Sleight of Hand has this event in their Vanilla+ mod. If China drives back Japan hard enough, there is a peace, that iirc results in Korea becoming a de-militarised zone.

ofc, once the war with Japan ends, the Chinese Civil War restarts some time later, so there's that to contend with as well.

Thanks !

 

[Dalwin]

Historical plausibility is indeed what is at stake. On that we agree.

However, your examples do not make your point. They instead make mine. Vichy actually happened. The conquest of Russia nearly happened. Nothing in those events goes against the concept of plausibility.

In the China situation however, you are asking for what you see as a plausible conclusion following up on an event that was extremely implausible. China driving Japan from the continent before the Allies are even involved in the theater should not happen. That fact that if a Human plays China in SP always results in this outcome is a flaw. I don't see it as a good expenditure of development resources to put custom a-historical and extremely unlikely events on top of a flawed premise. They should instead improve the performance of the Japanese AI so that a Chinese player is struggling to survive rather than succeeding easily.

 

[seattle]

The mod "The Road to 56" has such events. I played as China and drove Japan back to Korea when an event fired that lead to a Japanese Civil War and a peace deal that granted me all conquests on the Asian mainland.

 

[Swistaczek]

What the game needs is a way to sign a peace without a total surrender. There are many instances where such mechanic would apply (china, south africa, british raj).

 

[Misaka_Complex]

AI Japan needs to simply stop suiciding their divisions in naval invasions, for some reason they are either always stuck on a single tile on a port or just abandon the port and suicide all of its invading force its quite dumb. I suppose this is a flaw based on AI naval invasions as a whole and not just Japan since UK also has this same problem.

 

[Dafuka72]

I think the problem is the impossibility to make peace deals. In the dev diairies, PDS says that it will possible to end a war without total capitulation. The mecanism is in game, but it is completly broken for the moment.

 

[Tarroque]

What the game needs is a way to sign a peace without a total surrender. There are many instances where such mechanic would apply (china, south africa, british raj).

As well as most wars in history.

 

[vinicyush]

Historical plausibility is indeed what is at stake. On that we agree.

However, your examples do not make your point. They instead make mine. Vichy actually happened. The conquest of Russia nearly happened. Nothing in those events goes against the concept of plausibility.

In the China situation however, you are asking for what you see as a plausible conclusion following up on an event that was extremely implausible. China driving Japan from the continent before the Allies are even involved in the theater should not happen. That fact that if a Human plays China in SP always results in this outcome is a flaw. I don't see it as a good expenditure of development resources to put custom a-historical and extremely unlikely events on top of a flawed premise. They should instead improve the performance of the Japanese AI so that a Chinese player is struggling to survive rather than succeeding easily.

So, should Germany never win Barbarossa? It was extremelly implausible after all. Yes, it was way more plausible that germany would have won in russia than the chinese fending off the japanese, but that is like winning the lottery: if you buy two tickets you would have double the chance... which would be about 0,05% where I live.

In the end, I agree with both of you. China is my favourite country to play, I like fighting against overwhelming odds, but always find disapointing that pushing the japanese off the continent is trivial at best. So the AI should be tuned so that it is a desperated struggle. But if you make it impossible, you would take away all the fun on trying, which in turn would make the game worse for me, and be really bad in a game design point of view, since games should be fun and allow players to defy odds that would be close to 0 in real life.

For me it would not be a waste of development time if they added flavour to diferent parts of the game,it would only make a better experience for diferent kinds of players, and I think making the game fun for diferent folks is never a bad idea .

 

[melkor88]

I would like to see a way to end the war if China chase Japan off the continent.

 

[Dalwin]

So, should Germany never win Barbarossa? It was extremelly implausible after all. Yes, it was way more plausible that germany would have won in russia than the chinese fending off the japanese, but that is like winning the lottery: if you buy two tickets you would have double the chance... which would be about 0,05% where I live.

In the end, I agree with both of you. China is my favourite country to play, I like fighting against overwhelming odds, but always find disapointing that pushing the japanese off the continent is trivial at best. So the AI should be tuned so that it is a desperated struggle. But if you make it impossible, you would take away all the fun on trying, which in turn would make the game worse for me, and be really bad in a game design point of view, since games should be fun and allow players to defy odds that would be close to 0 in real life.

For me it would not be a waste of development time if they added flavour to diferent parts of the game,it would only make a better experience for diferent kinds of players, and I think making the game fun for diferent folks is never a bad idea .

Barbarossa extremely implausible?? Hardly. It came very close to success. How can you even compare Germany defeating Russia to China driving the Japanese off the continent unassisted before the end of 1939?

The second reason that your comparison fails completely is that if Germany does succeed in game they do so by taking enough VPs to exceed Russia's NU. There is no short cut to victory event.

I already said that the Japanese AI should be improved. At no point did I say or even imply that it should be made impossible.

Furthermore, I keep seeing those who are in favor of China's current easy victory then failing to take the Japanese islands. How can that be? It is so easy to do.

 

[Vicksburg]

Barbarossa extremely implausible?? Hardly. It came very close to success. How can you even compare Germany defeating Russia to China driving the Japanese off the continent unassisted before the end of 1939?

The second reason that your comparison fails completely is that if Germany does succeed in game they do so by taking enough VPs to exceed Russia's NU. There is no short cut to victory event.

I already said that the Japanese AI should be improved. At no point did I say or even imply that it should be made impossible.

Furthermore, I keep seeing those who are in favor of China's current easy victory then failing to take the Japanese islands. How can that be? It is so easy to do.

It is not that we CAN'T do so, but that we DO NO WANT to do so. We do not want to invade Japan as much as we do not want to go for world conquest with Luxemburg. There is a frontier between historically plausible and historically ridicilous that we do not want to cross. We want to peace with Japan but still have this threat next to us because this is what would have happened had China won the war.

Germany actually came far from winning on the Eastern front. She could have taken Moscow yes, but that would not have meant the collapse of USSR, far from that. Germany had too few ressources and too many enemies to stand a chance in the long term of the conflict, what is more in a total war against the soviets. Yet, people play as Germany to « make love to history » and change the course of it.

Finally, creating such event would require 10 minutes for skilled devs.