Victoria III - If you're in someone else's market, you practically NEVER want to build a port

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neroden

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Short summary of your issue
If you're in someone else's market, you practically NEVER want to build a port

Game Version
Vanilla (1.03), Checksum 5fc2

What OS are you playing on?
Linux

Do you have mods enabled?
No

Have you tried verifying your game files?
Yes

How much "pain" is this causing you?
9

Please explain the issue you experienced in the most condensed way possible
If you're in someone else's market -- say you're Columbia District, part of the British Market. If you start a trade route, it requires *your* convoys (from your port) -- but the profit goes to the Trade Center in London, as does the tax revenue on it.

The port is pure loss as currently implemented. So there's no point in building a port or trade routes as a junior member of a market, unless you're addressing a hard resource limit. Let Britain build its own trade routes! (The AI seems smart enough to realize this, too! It builds no ports.)

This may be semi-intentional, but the way it plays out isn't desirable. It's just weird to have no ports in any of the British Dominions, except one per CONTINENT for Market Access. There are probably several underlying problems here; but I think the core problem is that Convoys aren't a Good with a Price. (The way Transportation and Services are.)

If Convoys were a Good, which was produced by Ports and consumed by Trade Routes, then you would build a Port, get paid for the convoys, and not worry about the trade revenue going to London (because London's paying you for the convoys)

Please explain how to reproduce the issue


Is there anything else you think could help us identify/replicate the issue?


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neroden

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Since there's rarely any reason to start trade routes or ports if you're in someone else's market, this also means you can freely choose between Mercantilism, Protectionism, Free Trade, and Isolationsm for purposes of manipulating your political factions; they're purely decorative "political stunts" with no effect on your economy, since you don't get tariff income from routes anyway (your overlord who has the Trade Center does!)

This was unexpected.
 
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durbal

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Since there's rarely any reason to start trade routes or ports if you're in someone else's market, this also means you can freely choose between Mercantilism, Protectionism, Free Trade, and Isolationsm for purposes of manipulating your political factions; they're purely decorative "political stunts" with no effect on your economy, since you don't get tariff income from routes anyway (your overlord who has the Trade Center does!)

This was unexpected.
That explains why joining a Customs Union totally tanked my economy...
 
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SeekTruthFromFx

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Are you sure about this? I am playing as (Upper) Canada and I have created multiple Trade Centers in different Canadian states. However, the locations seem a bit random. I expected that they would all be built in my capital state or market capital, but they are not. I think it's possible that they are being built in the closest state to the relevant market, as measured using the British Market sea nodes, but I haven't really looked into it.

Also since you are playing in Canada, beware that other Canadian tags can accede to you without warning, so you might have more states than you think!
 
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neroden

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Maybe it doesn't always happen? Some documentation on where Trade Centers get created would be helpful? I thought building a Port on the Pacific Coast would help put a trade center there when I started a trade route. No...
 
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Hroppa

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The current design successfully incentivises smaller countries in a customs union to trade within it. But while as you say, external trade benefits the leader, internal trade is at the expense of the customs union leader, because the smaller countries don't have to pay the cost of convoys (they use the customs union leader's, after sharing a portion of their own, but as you say there's no incentive for them to build ports). This lack of income from shipping is probably a key reason Britain is performing much worse than France. British shipping was not just an incidental bonus - it was Britain's main export activity, accounting for a substantial portion of GDP.

Peter Mathias, The First Industrial Nation, p281-2: "from the 1840s to the 1870s these [trade balance] percentages virtually doubled to 22 per cent of national product (UK) for domestic exports and 33 per cent for imports... The growing deficit on the balance of trade was reversed by invisible exports. 'Income from services', earned abroad in fact, was in itself sufficient to cover the deficit in many years. By far the greatest of the services income was the earnings of shipping, which provided about two-thirds of this total, bringing in £100 million pa.a. in 1911-13. Then came repatriated profits of foreign trade... banking profits abroad, administrative services and pensions charged to colonial governments making up the bulk of the remainder."
 
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