Victoria II review from WeDoGames

[ComradeOm]

He has a point on the manual - a newcomer would definitely benefit from having a paper manual open beside them during the game. PDF manuals are simply not as accessible. I think that P'dox dropped the ball slightly in giving the forumites what they wanted (ie, a map) instead of a manual to reassure new players. And there is something intensely reassuring when you have a paper manual by your side as you dive into the game

 

[Johan]

He has a point on the manual - a newcomer would definitely benefit from having a paper manual open beside them during the game. PDF manuals are simply not as accessible. I think that P'dox dropped the ball slightly in giving the forumites what they wanted (ie, a map) instead of a manual to reassure new players. And there is something intensely reassuring when you have a paper manual by your side as you dive into the game

Actually, most review copies nowadays are digitial-only.

 

[Projekt 919]

Actually, most review copies nowadays are digitial-only.

Johann I have to thank you personally, Victoria 2 is the greatest Paradox game since HOI2 and has the all time best interface of any paradox game

and as I understand it it was you and king who pushed it through

 

[Maginor]

Well, the review will probably get the right sort of people interested anyway. By the right sort of people, I mean people who enjoy complex games. The review wasn't really negative, it just said 'not the game for me', basically, but also stated that it would be a great game once you learned how to play it.

 

[Aexar the Great]

I think people we all need to take a deep breath here. We worked very hard to make Victoria 2 more accessable than Victoria. I personally feel that we, as a company, have made great strides on that front.

I've seen your efforts in the demo, you have done a very good job.

 

[Smiffus]

... We worked very hard to make Victoria 2 more accessable than Victoria. I personally feel that we, as a company, have made great strides on that front. ...

And from what I learned playing the demo for one night, you guys quite succeeded. The usual caveat of knowing previous paradox games apply of course, but still.. well done. Thanks.

edit: Or what Max said..

 

[Tecnócrata]

I sat confused and opened up the PDF version of it to see a 91 page monster.

Then forget about the ROE2 manual and its 163 pages, not counting the Tutorial manual and the Customization manual. THAT were good old days.

Sorry, but if I don't want to read a "monster", I play Pacman.

 

[psykho]

Well, the review will probably get the right sort of people interested anyway. By the right sort of people, I mean people who enjoy complex games. The review wasn't really negative, it just said 'not the game for me', basically, but also stated that it would be a great game once you learned how to play it.

Exactly. This was my take on the review as well.

Personally, I think the tutorials are great!

 

[podcat]

Then forget about the ROE2 manual and its 163 pages, not counting the Tutorial manual and the Customization manual. THAT were good old days.

Sorry, but if I don't want to read a "monster", I play Pacman.

I miss the olden days of big manuals and books. Elite 2 came with 2 story collections I think as well as the manual and Homeworld had a nice fat manual with cool story as well.

 

[ComradeOm]

I miss the olden days of big manuals and books. Elite 2 came with 2 story collections I think as well as the manual and Homeworld had a nice fat manual with cool story as well.

Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe came with a thick history book detailing the the air war over the Western Front. Good days

 

[robc04]

First, I think the tutorials did a nice job. For the most part I understand how to do things. These were the best tutorials in a Paradox game and better than many non-Paradox games.

My favorite genre of game is strategy games. I have been playing computer games since the 1980s (TRS 80 model III, IBM PC Jr). In general I think I am at least moderately intelligent. I did well in school, was successful as a software developer for 13 years before stopping to take care of our new son.

But...
For the life of me I find Victoria 2 very hard to get into. As I said, I generally can figure out how to do stuff in the game but it is hard to see the effect. I another thread I mentioned that the game just doesn't seem transparent. To me at least, in a game it should be straight forward to determine how your choices effected the game. I am actually someone who enjoys reading a nice, in-depth manual.

This is a game I am really trying to like. I think it could provide a lot of replayability. A game like Civ seems deep to me. You have many ways to play, it provides a lot of choices that have an effect on the game. But, I have any easy time figuring out why things are happening and what effect my choices had on the game.

I keep reading these forums, hoping for the light bulb to go on, but so far I'm still mostly in the dark.

 

[Iasius]

I think the main difference with Vicky compared to many other strategy games is that many choices don't have an immediate effect, but are gradual and cumulative.

That's why there are all those nice statistics you can check to see where things are heading. Are my pops getting enough to eat? Is their militancy rising or falling. Do I have unemployed people?

I think it takes a few games under your belt to see how those cumulative changes culminate in stark differences over time. That's when you begin thinking like "I'd like to keep my pops' militancy very low as Prussia until the Liberal Revolution kicks in. There I'll forgo a bit of revenue now to keep them happy."



I'd also add, some of this ambiguity is part of makes me like Vicky. It's quite realistic IMO. It's not like political leaders today can go to their economics advisors and ask them: "If I lower taxes on the middle class by 2%, how would this impact GDP growth, unemployment, inflation and the people's happiness over the next ten years and what would happen if I increased taxes on the wealthy by 1% instead?"

Yeah, he or she's going to get some sort of answer, but unless it's in very general terms, it's rarely going to be anywhere close to 100% correct like it would be in many other games.


PS: Also, read lots of AARs.

 

[archaon_archi]

Since when a strategy game, which is not a rts game, it's not made for "hardcore gamers intested on the genre"? Civilization must be the only exception of the rule, imho.

 

[unmerged(18239)]

I miss the olden days of big manuals and books. Elite 2 came with 2 story collections I think as well as the manual and Homeworld had a nice fat manual with cool story as well.

I remember my X-Com copy comming complete with a secret file with background info and a full story. When I later got the collectors edition it had a 250 pages strat-guide.

Those were the days......

 

[archaon_archi]

I remember my X-Com copy comming complete with a secret file with background info and a full story. When I later got the collectors edition it had a 250 pages strat-guide.

Those were the days......

Yeah, I have some old games with giant manuals. They where full of charts and background histories and apart from being useful, they gave me as fun as the game sometimes.

I want those times back, mostly because I was a youngster with long holidays and a lot of free time.

 

[robc04]

...

I'd also add, some of this ambiguity is part of makes me like Vicky. It's quite realistic IMO. It's not like political leaders today can go to their economics advisors and ask them: "If I lower taxes on the middle class by 2%, how would this impact GDP growth, unemployment, inflation and the people's happiness over the next ten years and what would happen if I increased taxes on the wealthy by 1% instead?"

...

PS: Also, read lots of AARs.

Thanks for your suggestions, I appreciate it.

I part of me agrees with your above statement and a part of me doesn't. With some games, I do appreciate the feel of realism, limiting your omnipotence (sp?), etc. One problem though is that if you don't understand the model, you can't make informed and intelligent choices. For example, in another game I play (OOTP baseball) I don't believe it models day to day differences in the effectiveness of pitchers. So if your pitcher gets shelled in the first inning, you don't necessarily need to pull him in the 2nd since he is just as likely to bounce back if his ratings are good.

Sorry for deviating off the thread's topic. I'm just getting a little frustrated trying to get a handle on the game.

 

[RELee]

Yeah, I have some old games with giant manuals. They where full of charts and background histories and apart from being useful, they gave me as fun as the game sometimes.

I want those times back, mostly because I was a youngster with long holidays and a lot of free time.

Heck! I would like them for when I have to wander into the bathroo ... I mean, library.