Victoria II - Or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Fascism

[that-guy-is-it]

Something I just thought of, in Vicky 2, Fascism was kind of that cool, end of game weapon you have but cannot really use. They come in really late to the party, and, after the hassle of letting them take power and building industry, etc. The Game pretty much ends. The ideological lines are drawn, but there is no payoff. So, now that HOI4 categorizes nations as Democratic, Communist, Fascist, or Neutral, I think that a well built converter (maybe one made by Paradox Themselves, wink, wink, nudge, nudge) would make both games much, much better. Not only would it add much more variety to HOI4, but it would make Vicky much more exiting, all without having to modify it at all. Think about it, Vicky could be the game where you try to make your country into an Industrial State, one capable of building guns, tanks, radios, automobiles, etc. And is the ideological buildup, with HOI4 being the climax. Rather than game the infamy system for expansion, concentrate on improving what you have, forging ideological alliances, all for the final drama in the 1930's. It would be bloody amazing.

 

[Axe99]

I remember the Vicky 1 to HoI 2 (I think - the 1s and 2s could be mixed up, it was a while ago, don't think there was a 3 in the mix though) converter, and it was good fun, but the problem is you really have to hold back in Vicky (or start playing as Siam or the like) or you'll be a monster by the time you shift over to HoI (and a World War where you know you've won without much of an effort before it starts isn't that exciting).

There also tended to be difficulties with the different factions, and the national focus side of things could get screwy very quickly (many of the national focusses are country-specific, and those countries may not exist on a Vicky to HoI playthrough). But.....

Maybe if you had a converter that also gave all the majors generic national focusses as well, it might work out? I'd deffo give it a shake if someone had a crack at it, but I'm not quite keen enough to do it m'self. The more sandbox nature of HoI4 probably means (NF trees aside) it's the best HoI for this kind of thing to date.

 

[Oriflamme]

Yeah, the problem is that Paradox strategy games don't model the flow of history very well. You would have to put severe limits on yourself in Victoria II in order to make HOI4 have any semblance of a challenge.

 

[dsteve3]

Not to drift too far away from relevance, but I was thinking the other day that PDS needs to make a major "Vicky" expansion for EU4. Something that would introduce the Industrial Revolution in the late game and offer to extend the timeline of EU4 into the Twentieth Century.

Now, the issue with anything that will allow HoI4 to import would be base engine compatibility. Or at least, I think ...

I haven't touched V2 in a dog's age. Can't say I'm drawn to the idea at this point. There's been too many REALLY great upgrades in EU4 that add to ease and convenience of game play. V2 would just be too old school.

 

[Caesar15]

I'll take Victoria 3 first.

 

[Axe99]

Not to drift too far away from relevance, but I was thinking the other day that PDS needs to make a major "Vicky" expansion for EU4. Something that would introduce the Industrial Revolution in the late game and offer to extend the timeline of EU4 into the Twentieth Century.

Now, the issue with anything that will allow HoI4 to import would be base engine compatibility. Or at least, I think ...

I haven't touched V2 in a dog's age. Can't say I'm drawn to the idea at this point. There's been too many REALLY great upgrades in EU4 that add to ease and convenience of game play. V2 would just be too old school.

As far as I'm aware (ie, I've never done a converter, and haven't used one in a few years), it's not an engine thing for converters, just a case of converting save data from one game to save data from another (so you could do it manually for each game in notepad++ or a similar editor if you wanted to, although that'd be a tad insane ).

On the EU4 expansion or Vicky, I think (ie, just my opinion ) the Industrial Revolution and onwards into the 20th century is better handled in a separate game - EU's mechanics are far too limited to cover it off. I'd actually personally take Vicky back to the late 1700s rather than push EU out - Vicky's mechanics probably work better moving back than EU's moving forward. That said, I could see Vicky and EU's end/start dates being a bit like CK2s and EU4's at the moment, with a bit of overlap.

 

[Goodis]

My only concern is that it wouldnt be ironman compatible. I don't feel like I'm progressing in the game unless it's ironman(1st world problems) it's just a tick I have. And also not to mention the game at the HoI4 phase would be far too easy, unless maybe you've played a very small nation in Vic2.

It's also(I assume) really hard to make an accurate converter, we all know how well the ck2-eu4 converter worked the first times around release......(wrong cultures, wrong tech groups etc)

 

[joe9594]

It's also(I assume) really hard to make an accurate converter, we all know how well the ck2-eu4 converter worked the first times around release......(wrong cultures, wrong tech groups etc)

eu4 to V2 mod converter actually works really well. Much better than the CK2 to EU4 converter in my opinion. If you turn off westernization in EU4 you even get a reasonably ok looking start in terms of the number of modernized countries. The one major problem is that the population of Asia always ends up being much too low with the population of the new world and Europe ending up too high. I dont think it would be too much of an issue to make a good converter and they would probably put more work into it once more games had them and converting between games started to become a more significant selling point of paradox historical games.

 

[uberjedi]

They could put the converter as DLC. I would buy it.

 

[Axe99]

My only concern is that it wouldnt be ironman compatible. I don't feel like I'm progressing in the game unless it's ironman(1st world problems) it's just a tick I have. And also not to mention the game at the HoI4 phase would be far too easy, unless maybe you've played a very small nation in Vic2.

It's also(I assume) really hard to make an accurate converter, we all know how well the ck2-eu4 converter worked the first times around release......(wrong cultures, wrong tech groups etc)

I suspect it wouldn't be ironman compatible - part of the idea behind ironman is so that people can't make achievements too easy, and giving anyone a whole game to 'warm up' before having a crack at achievements in HoI4 would make things crazy easy (although a fairly time-intensive way to chase an achievement!). The CK2 to EU4 converter isn't ironman compatible. Doesn't mean it necessarily couldn't be though, just talking it out .

 

[Zoob]

I know that the world conquest fans and the people who like to conquer large swathes in a single PDX title would probably bounce off the idea hard, I think these games need a great rise and fall mechanic. As someone has said, if you play half competently in Vicky 2 you'll be a world beater by 1936 making HOI a bit pointless. Playing from CK2 all the way through you'll have conquered the world by 1500, what are you going to do come 1936?

The games should work harder at smashing hegemony.

 

[Kapitalisti]

Yeah, the problem is that Paradox strategy games don't model the flow of history very well. You would have to put severe limits on yourself in Victoria II in order to make HOI4 have any semblance of a challenge.

Imagine starting in 867 with CK2, then converting to EUIV AND then to Vic2. Of course a massive empire in Vic2 is almost unplayable since you're getting province events every few days...

 

[joe9594]

Imagine starting in 867 with CK2, then converting to EUIV AND then to Vic2. Of course a massive empire in Vic2 is almost unplayable since you're getting province events every few days...

Actually the event spam has been massively reduced by the patch that was put out not that long ago. Its much better now.

 

[Kapitalisti]

Actually the event spam has been massively reduced by the patch that was put out not that long ago. Its much better now.

Yeah, I tried with the current patch, that's why I said "almost unplayable"

 

[HerrWeltkrieg]

Well one way to do it would be harsh convert ratios of industry and population.... and regarding colonial gains, well total sanbox atm?

 

[Tus3]

And also not to mention the game at the HoI4 phase would be far too easy, unless maybe you've played a very small nation in Vic2.

I heard that some people switch nations after converting their games. So they fight against the massive overpowered monster they created.

 

[OBRkenobi]

We'd have to wait until Victoria 3 comes out first.

 

[Chaos_TLW]

I heard that some people switch nations after converting their games. So they fight against the massive overpowered monster they created.

Yeah, that actually seems like fun. I'd love to play as the US against the Communist Japan I created in my last HPM game. Both powers were pretty up to pair, as I didn't bother playing particularly optimally, specially after I became Communist, somewhat on accident, I killed off an enormous communist revolt manually and didn't notice a 15k stack in Tokyo until its siege was at 89%, I think over a year later. I could've easily killed it but I decided to let it happen just to know what happens in HPM when you go commie. I just barely had time to become Totalitarian mid-1935. There is also that Communist China there, which is actually a bunch of different warlords that I turned commie one by one. Only one I wasn't allied to was the PRC itself, which had some coastal areas only. But it does provide with a pretty good scenario for a two front war for my Japan, shoving off the US in the Pacific while trying to re-unite a puppet China that is going pop like a firework.

I still don't know why the US doesn't invade Canada to take its cores in Oregon, Washington and Columbia. They could easily mow down the UK+Canada's military with their land forces, and would probably be able to stand up to the UK's navy if they wanted to.

 

[that-guy-is-it]

Also, how about this: Create an evil Empire in Vicky, and tear it down as an underdog democracy in HOI. I think that would be pretty fun.

I remember the Vicky 1 to HoI 2 (I think - the 1s and 2s could be mixed up, it was a while ago, don't think there was a 3 in the mix though) converter, and it was good fun, but the problem is you really have to hold back in Vicky (or start playing as Siam or the like) or you'll be a monster by the time you shift over to HoI (and a World War where you know you've won without much of an effort before it starts isn't that exciting).

There also tended to be difficulties with the different factions, and the national focus side of things could get screwy very quickly (many of the national focusses are country-specific, and those countries may not exist on a Vicky to HoI playthrough). But.....

Maybe if you had a converter that also gave all the majors generic national focusses as well, it might work out? I'd deffo give it a shake if someone had a crack at it, but I'm not quite keen enough to do it m'self. The more sandbox nature of HoI4 probably means (NF trees aside) it's the best HoI for this kind of thing to date.

I would say an ideology based tree. Democracies get one that, if freedom is strong, is based on containing the other ideologies, or, if weak, on overthrowing dictators. Fascists try to expand, and get bonuses against neighbors. Communists try to spread revolution. Neutrals get a tree that pushes them to one of the three ideologies or encourages them to try and go it alone.

I'll take Victoria 3 first.

We'd have to wait until Victoria 3 comes out first.

Agreed, but that ain't happening for a long while, so a mod would be nice.

 

[Axe99]

I would say an ideology based tree. Democracies get one that, if freedom is strong, is based on containing the other ideologies, or, if weak, on overthrowing dictators. Fascists try to expand, and get bonuses against neighbors. Communists try to spread revolution. Neutrals get a tree that pushes them to one of the three ideologies or encourages them to try and go it alone.

I like your idea of creating a monster in Vicky then taking it on in HoI . In terms of the NF trees though, it becomes a good deal more difficult (not sure how much, probably a "suck it and see" kind of problem) more difficult once you go from a "convert data from one game's data structures to anothers" to a "convert data and assess how strong each of the factions are, and set up NF trees as appropriate". It'd be very cool, but you'd need to find someone willing to build it .