Vicky -> HoI2 Converter?

[unmerged(34098)]

Hey,

Just recently got into Paradox Games...Currently own Vicky, Mail-Ordered EU2 (waiting for it to arrive), and pre-ordered HoIlatinum. I'm looking forward to EU2 so I can play 1492 -> 1920 with the savegame converter program. I'm also looking forward to HoI2 in early 2005. Will Paradox release a Vicky>HoI2 converter like they did for CK>EU2?

I hope so...

 

[Nikolai]

Judging on the end dates/start dates of these two, I think the answer is "no".

 

[unmerged(13520)]

No idea at all....then again, if there's enough demand and interest, fans could always make one, with a bit of work (as with the current EU2 > Victoria fanmade converter, which already gives some interesting results ). Don't remember any Victoria > HoI1 converter being created yet, though....

 

[Kriegsspieler]

What you would really be doing, I think, is just extending Vicky futher into the 20th century, no?

 

[unmerged(34098)]

Well,

I know the EU2>Vicky converter is fanmade, but judging from the tone of the discussion, they're waiting for HoI2 to come out before building a Vicky->HoI(2) converter. The jump in time from 1920 to 1936 is not that great, and could easily just be considered depression years.

The reason I was hoping Paradox would make the converter was because there are a number of factors that might be beyond the rather talented group of people already modding these games...How does one take into account the possibility that the Republic of Texas could avoid annexation in Vicky? There's also the aspect involving the rise of communism/fascism/etc. I figure communism and democracy (or democratic monarchies) would be straight forward, but the rise of fascism had a great deal to do with wanting revenge for poor treatment in WW1. The great war is simulated in Vicky, but can modders take into account who won or lost?

Extending Vicky beyond 1920 is not necessarily the point. EU2, Vicky, and HoI each present certain periods in history, each with their own unique social and political issues. I would like to see if a player can guide a single, persistant country through those periods.

Imagine, if you will, Napoleonic France surviving, there is no Waterloo. There is no Concert of Europe. How would that effect the Industrial Revolution? There certainly would be a Great War, but this one would probably be Britain vs. France. How would that turn out? The losers would most likely undergo a radical government change, as Germany and Russia did after WW1. How would that war turn out?

Simply put, since the game engines for simulating these time periods already exist, and there is already a conversion tool that allows players to transfer savegames between two of the three games involved, it's not that much of a step to see a second conversion tool that completes the chain.

 

[Kriegsspieler]

Call me unimaginative, but if you take HOI as a standard (and, for purposes of argument, a reasonable approximation for HOI2), then I have trouble seeing how Vicky could be converted into HOI. The constellation of particular countries and their political alignments and animosities (Germany has GOT to start a war with France, Germany has GOT to go to war eventually against the Bolshevik menace, etc.) is so pronounced in HOI that I can't see it being easily melded with Vicky's more open-ended historical plotting. But I am constantly amzed by what modders come up with in these forums, so I guess this possibility shouldn't overwhelm me, either!

 

[unmerged(34098)]

This is how I see the thing working...

The converter translates province ownership over from vicky to hoi/hoi2. Now there will have to be some work regarding odd countries like the CSA or Quebec, or something. This is where I think the biggest problem lies.

Military units would be transferred over based on a _consistant_ conversion chart (10000 vicky soldiers = x number of HoI divisions). Tanks would come from Vicky Inf/Cav with Tanks attached. Art would convert from attached Art. Ships -> Ships. I'm a little concerned with airplanes.

Democracies would come from vicky democracies or democratic monarchies.
Communists would come from vicky Proletarian Dictatorships.

Whoever loses the last great war in Vicky would turn into a Fascist government. Presidential Dictatorships would also become Fascist

Heads of the Allies\Axis\Commintern would be determined based on this grade: European Countries considered first, American Countries second, Asian Countries third, African Countries last.

Diplomatic standing between nations would (probably) translate directly from Vicky->HoI

Those with the highest Tech level at the end of Vicky would translate to major power beginning tech level in HoI. The lower the Vicky tech level, the weaker the beginning HoI tech level.

 

[Kriegsspieler]

This is a neat idea, I must admit!

Those with the highest Tech level at the end of Vicky would translate to major power beginning tech level in HoI. The lower the Vicky tech level, the weaker the beginning HoI tech level.

This is the area that would probably prove most difficult, since the kind of military-dominated techs represented in HOI are not immediately tranferrable onto (or from, more appropriately!) a Vicky-world.
Perhaps what HOI2 needs is some Romanticism?

 

[Gothmog]

Sounds like a rather good idea...the problem would be to implement all the little details? What about colonies? Technology?

 

[unmerged(34098)]

I've played a little HoI, but I don't quite recall how British colonies (India, S. Africa, Egypt) were handled. I would handle the territories with the colony tag at the end of a vicky savegame be treated the same way Britain's colonies are handled in a standard HoI(2) game.

Tech would have several Tiers:
First Rate Major Powers (Germany, Britain, USA, etc.) would get "x" infantry tech, "x" armor, "x" navy, etc.
Second Rate Major Powers (Spain, Poland, etc.) would get "y" infantry tech, "y" armor, "y" navy, etc.
Minor Powers (Mexico, Greece, China, etc.) would get "z" infantry (and so on...)

"x", "y", "z" represent specific packages of technologies. "x" would have the most modern stuff for a 1936 game. "y" would be the less modern stuff. "z" would be the most basic or even below basic level techs. "z" countries wouldn't start with tanks, for example. These Tiers can be expanded upon.

 

[smn_]

Hey,

Just recently got into Paradox Games...Currently own Vicky, Mail-Ordered EU2 (waiting for it to arrive), and pre-ordered HoIlatinum. I'm looking forward to EU2 so I can play 1492 -> 1920 with the savegame converter program. I'm also looking forward to HoI2 in early 2005. Will Paradox release a Vicky>HoI2 converter like they did for CK>EU2?

I hope so...

I, for one, am looking forward to seeing Germany DoW the half-Europe Belgium which contols UK, France and US as puppets

 

[Captain Frakas]

Heads of the Allies\Axis\Commintern would be determined based on this grade: European Countries considered first, American Countries second, Asian Countries third, African Countries last.

I suggest :
the most prestigious nation with for national value order become Axis leader.
the most prestigious nation with for national value liberty become Allied leader.
the most prestigious nation with for national value equality become Komintern leader

 

[unmerged(34098)]

smn: That would be fun. If one could actually stretch the entire game from 1492, the possibilities are nearly limitless. By 1936, there may not even be a Germany, UK, USA, Russia, France, or Japan!

Captain Frakas: Your idea makes a bit more sense than mine. It would probably be easier to implement, too.

 

[Finnish Dragon]

Theoretically this is a good idea. However, this idea creates a countless possibilities and what-ifs? What if Prussia never unifies Germany? What if Mexico defeats USA? What if UK colonizes Japan? HOI2 is about WWII and that is the main focus and that is what will make a lot of money for Paradox. Player controlled nation would probably be very powerful in last decades of Victoria. I don´t whether there would be a challenge if human player can easily crush other nations.

 

[Narug]

A converter would be hard to make for a game with such a limited timeframe

 

[unmerged(34098)]

Narug: I honestly don't think the timeframe would be the issue. The converter wouldn't care if the save game would end in 5 years or 500...

Finnish Dragon: The what-ifs are exactly my point. I do agree that some of the better players here would be able to build a super-state to finish the game in HoI, but not everyone is good at all three games. There's also the possibility that the AI, given enough time, could create its own batch of super-states with which to fight the player. Regardless, a decent HoI player will still be able to maul the AI whether he's been playing the same country for several hundred game years or just started a vanilla GC. However, it's not about the destination. It's the trip.

 

[Chaingun]

As I see it the problem would be that many of the greater international conflicts in Paradox singleplayer games (MP has enough great warfare as it is), such as EU2, Victoria and HoI are really event driven. When you get a totally ahistorical setup no events will no longer make sense; thus these will not trigger or give weird or annoying results (why should a super plutocratic EU2 Russia be engulfed in Vic communism?). Either way these games will feel a lot more generic then their default counter parts, and especially in HoI for which I feel there is a total dependence on an event based representation of evil Germany & Co this problem would become very awkward.

There are solutions though. For example an "event creator" could be written for the Vic->HoI2 transition which declares one/more countries to be the root of evil compared to Germany and Japan. Some countries may be determined to be in direct opposition, and comparable to the UK, France and the US. A generic event set is then generated to trigger a huge conflict in HoI. I haven't played HoI, but I assume the goal of that game is war and a big military stand off and not so much of economic development.

By the way, for a SP game started in EU2 chances are Austria is the world's leading superpower other funny things . Imagine how a game stretching as far as from CK would look... Anyhow, it'd be great if someone actually made a converter for HoI2 upon release because despite I problem I discussed in this post the converted games tend to be interesting for these reasons.

 

[unmerged(34098)]

Thanks for putting in your two cents, Chaingun. I see that problem as well (as noted earlier when I mentioned odd countries such as the CSA).

I don't know much about HoI (and less about HoI2). Are the events in a single file, or several files?

Obviously, the programmers cannot account for every variation that may arise from an EU2>Vicky savegame converted to HoI. So possibly a set of potential events could be written. A less efficient (sp?) method would be to build country specific events lists (if Brazil = Head of the Fascists, then load BrazilNazi events file).

It would probably have to be more dynamic, the programmers assigning various areas as potential hotspots to start wars over depending on a general political climate.

 

[smn_]

Seriously,

I think a WWII simulation needs to be deterministic. This means events have to happen, and they must make sense. So a Vic converted game would and could not be a WWII game at all.

The only thing that could work, would be totally forgetting any WWII related events and setup, and just have HoI2 as the engine for war simulation, in the age of armor and fighters. The converter would then need to search for similarities in country ideologies + government form, and use this data to give them a government form and place the alignment in the 'triangle'. The leaders of the three (or two, if there are no communists) alliances could then be picked from the strongest nations that are close to their respective ideology triangle points.

Then, a dynamic event set could be used, along with a very aggressive AI for the "Axis" alliance leader, to go demanding territory and building a huge army, annexing small countries until the "Allies" have enough and DoW.

I'm not entirely sure if it would be fun or not. Huge effort anyway. And quite possibly the converter program could be written without even access to any Paradox code, just save file analysis.

Hey, this sounds actually like an interesting and challenging project

 

[unmerged(34098)]

smn: It would be a fun game. Just about everything could be accounted for through basic interpretation of the savegame file...except events and "new" nations. The events might be accounted for by a really, really big events file created by a pool of highly creative alt-history/wargame nerds (like us ). This thing would have to take into account a large number of historical variations. It's time consuming, but I don't think it'd be impossible. If you've got EU2 as the start point, then it's reasonable to assume the nations available in EU2 would also be your start point in building events. You will, of course, also have to consider the potential nations that form in Vicky. It'd be a series of if, then statements, right?

The new countries would at least require new graphics for the country flag and leaders. The units would probably have to be copied from another country...

New Countries...hmmm. Well, the basis of the list for alternate countries that might make it into HoI through the converter would also come from EU2 and Vicky. Incas, Iriqious, CSA, California, Texas, Quebec, etc. The converter would have to check the nation tags at the end of the Vicky savegame, then copy the appropriate stuff into HoI from a library of available graphics.

Like I said earlier, the fun would come from actually playing through to see what would happen, not necessarily how it would end.