As a US and CW player I'd prefer to still see Vichy France, since I don't recognize those clowns as the legitimate government. Playing Germany, I wouldn't care what they call themselves.
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As a US and CW player I'd prefer to still see Vichy France, since I don't recognize those clowns as the legitimate government. Playing Germany, I wouldn't care what they call themselves.
Vichy doesn't fit in well with the game's mechanics, and what it comes down to is figuring out a way to make the game feel historical and also be playable.
The situation now is:
1) Northern and Western France are given to Germany, so these areas are annexed, not occupied.
2) Because of the previous point, it is impossible to liberate France. France exists, but some of its provinces have been annexed by Germany. There is no game mechanic to reverse this over than by event, and Paradox has not written the event.
2) European Vichy France is not removable by any means other than annexation.
3) Non-European Vichy France featured in a lot of WWII subtexts, and these would require a lot of event scripting, and Paradox has not done this.
Here is what I think should be done:
1) Northern and Western France should be occupied by Germany (not owned) as a consequence of the Vichy event. It is simple to write this into the event, and allows for French liberation.
2) Some means of dissolving European Vichy and putting it under French ownership and German control should be adopted. I wrote a mod where the trigger was Operation Torch -- if the Americans were in the war, they could make this decision, which would give European Vichy to Germany as suggested, and would give North African Vichy back to France and under American and Italian control. Other triggers should be decided upon -- probably one based upon UK success, one based upon GER/ITA failure, and one based upon the liberation of France (Allies in Paris, but probably Vichy dissolution should be triggered before this), which would do substantially the same thing.
3) Non-European Vichy could be the subject of some additional events. The goal here is to have Vichy territories go back to France naturally, rather than being annexed by other Allied powers as a result of a war against Vichy France. The situation between Vichy and the Allied powers was complex and it will be tricky to make an event sequence that doesn't look wrong.
It is essential that Paradox do this, however. Otherwise you may as well force everyone to play Germany. It is important that when the game takes charge of history, as it does with the Vichy event, that it maintain some responsibility for what comes after. Assuming that game-play mechanics kinks get ironed out of this game, the situation with Vichy is the most obvious and significant problem in the game.
The problem is solvable, but Paradox has to decide to solve it. I will be very disappointed if this is left to modders. The vanilla surrender events are an important part of the game, and attention should be paid to them. Up until now they've gotten almost none, there are hideous bugs in them.
The situation now is:
1) Northern and Western France are given to Germany, so these areas are annexed, not occupied.
2) Because of the previous point, it is impossible to liberate France. France exists, but some of its provinces have been annexed by Germany. There is no game mechanic to reverse this over than by event, and Paradox has not written the event.
2) European Vichy France is not removable by any means other than annexation.
3) Non-European Vichy France featured in a lot of WWII subtexts, and these would require a lot of event scripting, and Paradox has not done this.
Here is what I think should be done:
1) Northern and Western France should be occupied by Germany (not owned) as a consequence of the Vichy event. It is simple to write this into the event, and allows for French liberation.
2) Some means of dissolving European Vichy and putting it under French ownership and German control should be adopted. I wrote a mod where the trigger was Operation Torch -- if the Americans were in the war, they could make this decision, which would give European Vichy to Germany as suggested, and would give North African Vichy back to France and under American and Italian control. Other triggers should be decided upon -- probably one based upon UK success, one based upon GER/ITA failure, and one based upon the liberation of France (Allies in Paris, but probably Vichy dissolution should be triggered before this), which would do substantially the same thing.
3) Non-European Vichy could be the subject of some additional events. The goal here is to have Vichy territories go back to France naturally, rather than being annexed by other Allied powers as a result of a war against Vichy France. The situation between Vichy and the Allied powers was complex and it will be tricky to make an event sequence that doesn't look wrong.
It is essential that Paradox do this, however. Otherwise you may as well force everyone to play Germany. It is important that when the game takes charge of history, as it does with the Vichy event, that it maintain some responsibility for what comes after. Assuming that game-play mechanics kinks get ironed out of this game, the situation with Vichy is the most obvious and significant problem in the game.
The problem is solvable, but Paradox has to decide to solve it. I will be very disappointed if this is left to modders. The vanilla surrender events are an important part of the game, and attention should be paid to them. Up until now they've gotten almost none, there are hideous bugs in them.
a wider pt, which relates to this, is so far HOI3 has given no attention to the post war dynamics at all, either in Europe or China. I'm content the focus at the moment is on basic dynamics but at some stage all this lot needs to be addressed as well
@Meadhros - I have to take issue with your Byzantium comment. I've never found a serious historian who wouldn't argue that the fundamental shift in the Eastern Empire from a tax-based, civilian administered empire to a land-based, military empire after the 7th century collapse created a new and distinct entity - usually referred to as the Byzantine Empire because it had lost most of what had made it Roman - including the Latin language.
Signed.
How would it be if decisions to claim Vichy colonies became available to Free France depending on date and, perhaps, the relative NUs of Vichy and FF?
This would, I suppose, split Madagascar / North Africa / West Africa / Syria / whatever from Vichy control and put FF (and by extension the Allies) at war with the 'breakaway' colony.
Vichy France/the French State was different from the French Third Republic. It had a different constitution, flag, etc. So to treat it as the same is a tad odd. Plus, as noted, it was ultimately not recognized as the legitimate France by the Allies. It was a very different state from the Third Republic (and in a different international situation to boot), so having Vichy France in is a more accurate representation. Just like I'd support a different country tag for the "Republic of China" (China-Nanjing) under Wang Jingwei rather than keeping the Nationalist China tag.
Well thats what it was called. It might not make sense but... there it is.
Actually the legitimate government was over turned by its military. Marshal Patain was the signitory on the treaty not the civilian government. From then on Military colaberators took over Government possitions.
This was the desired outcome. In fact the UK government was presuring the French to continue fighting from its colonies but internal factors prevented this from happening.
Wasn't that what really happened? I believe it was called Vichy France (Infact Germany handed over a large portion of territory they had conquered. They had captured La Rochell and Lyon.)
What might fix Vichy politically, if not necessarily the same sort of problem as the TC brough up, would be if they started with a guarantee from Germany. So they couldn't just be invaded by the allies, or anyone else, without angering the Axis.
If Paradox is reading this and is considering how to handle the French surrender, please don't forget Italy. The current system completely cuts any Italian conquest out of the loop, which makes it very difficult for an Italian player.
BB
BB
actually Italy is still too obvious in this game ... france has some other neighbors left and lots of sea borders. btw shouldn't America or the UK get their own kind of Vichy puppet after 'liberating' France?
The Byzantine Empire was known as the Eastern Roman Empire on maps from AD 395 to AD 610. After this time both maps and by its own people and most other states it was known as the Roman Empire or the Empire of the Romans (Latin: Imperium Romanum, Imperium Romanorum, Greek: Βασιλεία τῶν Ῥωμαίων, Basileía tôn Rhōmaíōn), Romania (Ῥωμανία, Rhōmanía), and also as Rhōmaís (Ῥωμαΐς). Calling the empire "the Byzantine Empire" began in Western Europe in 1557 long after it had ceased to exist. "Byzantine" itself comes from "Byzantium", the name of the city of Constantinople before it became the capital of Constantine in 330AD.
In the Islamic world and in the Balkins it was simply known as روم (Rûm "Rome"). In the West after the crowning of Charlemaine as Holy Roman Emperor they would often call the "Roman Empire" the Empire of the Greeks (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) in the West implying a rejection of the empire's claim to be the Roman Empire.
So basically while it existed it was never known as the "Byzantine Empire" during the time of its existence. Perhaps today given the controversy the UN might insist that its title should be "The State Formerly Known as the Empire of the Romans."
To get back to the original issue of Vichy inheriting France's forces - I don't se why it could not be handled in the following way:
- French land and air forces are transferred to Vichy.
- Said forces are reduced by (or to) a certain number or percentage, as deemed fitting.
- For the French fleet - this should be an event, an event forcing an immediate decision on the part of the UK player to attack or not attack the French fleet. It would create a high percentage chance of sinking each French ship, and a very small chance of capturing it. And yes, it should be an event and not a decision - since it was something that was done in the moment, preempting the Germans securing the ships and taking advantage of the fact that the French fleet was unprepared for battle.
If the British do go with sinking the French fleet, there could be a small chance of war with Vichy, and also some effects on their belligerence or whatever other facts seem appropriate. A failure to do so could for example give them a dissent hit, due to a failure to show resolve.
So what is the beauty of handling the fleet that way?
Well, the idea is to go for a realistic, situational approach instead of a deterministic one. It was not a given that the UK would attack the French fleet. It was also not a given that this attack would succeed so strongly, and it was also not a given that this wouldn't provoke Vichy France to declare war on the UK. These uncertainties should, in my opinion, be taken into account.
As a bonus, the whole Vichy thing becomes more interesting - we have a decision with consequences to be made by the UK player.
- French land and air forces are transferred to Vichy.
- Said forces are reduced by (or to) a certain number or percentage, as deemed fitting.
- For the French fleet - this should be an event, an event forcing an immediate decision on the part of the UK player to attack or not attack the French fleet. It would create a high percentage chance of sinking each French ship, and a very small chance of capturing it. And yes, it should be an event and not a decision - since it was something that was done in the moment, preempting the Germans securing the ships and taking advantage of the fact that the French fleet was unprepared for battle.
If the British do go with sinking the French fleet, there could be a small chance of war with Vichy, and also some effects on their belligerence or whatever other facts seem appropriate. A failure to do so could for example give them a dissent hit, due to a failure to show resolve.
So what is the beauty of handling the fleet that way?
Well, the idea is to go for a realistic, situational approach instead of a deterministic one. It was not a given that the UK would attack the French fleet. It was also not a given that this attack would succeed so strongly, and it was also not a given that this wouldn't provoke Vichy France to declare war on the UK. These uncertainties should, in my opinion, be taken into account.
As a bonus, the whole Vichy thing becomes more interesting - we have a decision with consequences to be made by the UK player.
The only thing I'll add to brucemo's suggestions is that Vichy should be broken up into constituent parts, so that a war with Syria would not necessarily mean a war with Algerian and Morocco. The CORE mod did this with good results.
I don't like an automatic "sink french navy" event. There is a possibility that UK would not be in a position to perform the attack. (theoratically) If RN would be in pieces, licking its wounds in Indian ocean and then suddenly getting a chance to attack french navy, it would be odd. There should be some kind of event and I think there should be some sort of (slight) chance for Vichy to join axis, after the attack.
Also the french government in exile was not really strong player. Allies didn't even trust them enough to allow them to participate in d-day planning. Degaulle was furious. Vichy in Africa could have also gone to any direction. I think Vichy position generally was to stay out of it, so it should try to appease the strongest (neighbours).
Any suggestions?
This would be ideal as it represented the fragmentary nature of Vichy basically being controlled by its military leader in each separate area.
For French fleet the consequences of an event for UK to attack or not the fleet should be 3 choices-
Attack in strength with good chances most capitol ships sunk or strongly damaged and a few small captured. Result however is a Vichy with German GoI and in Axis faction so Germany have easier time getting Vichy areas as outright allies.
Attack minimally damages only capitol ships and no chance to capture anything. Result is Vichy neutral in the faction triangle and can be moved either way with diplomacy. GoI from Germany only if Italy not Germany ally.
No attack- Vichy areas start in Allied faction with only homeland area having GoI.
This would require 5 Vichy entities however... Vichy- IE homeland France, N Africa, Syria, African Colonies, Madagascar. Small area not covered by this IE S America and Med/Pacific French colonies separate event where major power in those area take control, IE US and Japan.
Especially Paradox should end the annexation of French provinces by Germany on surrender and make it occupation as well still leave at least 2 choices for UK to attack or not the French fleet.
The separate Vichy entities probably not going to occur by Paradox... some mod hopefully can arrange something close to more realistic modeling of Vichy because there are many other area Paradox better off concentrating on.
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the only thing Vichy france should get is a few militia and military police at the very best.