Vichy France goes immediately to war

[Secret Master]

So, basically, you want to fill the ranks of your infantry with foreigners, up to the point there autonomy goes up as fast as you can keep it down.

At least until the puppets run out of manpower.

There is no way to force a puppet to upgrade their conscription law, as far as I know. And if the puppet has manpower limitations (I'm talking about you, Raj), you can't really get around them if the puppet won't fire the appropriate NF.

Still, just getting 200k in foreign manpower can make a difference.

 

[ForsakenSoldier]

Ignorance is not stupidity. There are plenty of people who don't know what those words mean in French, since they don't speak French. And given how often Vichy is used as a word to describe Petain's regime, it doesn't make someone stupid just because they don't know what the French State is in French.

So everybody who doesn't speak French is stupid? Nice

I don't speak French, and I don't think people who don't are stupid. I think you're stupid if you can't roughly discern what "Etat Francais" might mean, i mean come on, just look at it. This goes into the realm of general/common knowledge. Only young children or people who can't read at all would have an excuse to struggle with that one.

What makes people more stupid is the inability (or unwillingness) to learn things. Especially when these days all it takes is a 2 second Google search.

 

[BBBD316]

I did French for a few years in high school and I wouldn't know what Etat means. Why should I look it up when everyone in the English speaking west knows it as Vichy?

Vichy is a strange case and with the way things are now I am not sure why any German player would take the Vichy option, might as well take the land yourself seeing as you are still at war with France.

I do think that factions should be more choosey when minors ask to join especially when the World War has not started. If Japan manages to get China to bend then the Soviets and Allies shouldn't be too keen to go to war with Japan when they are moping up the warlords.

 

[neusaap]

I did French for a few years in high school and I wouldn't know what Etat means.

Your French given to you in high school was quite miserable if they didn't even teach you what 'United States' means (Etats-Unis)

 

[Tempestra]

I don't speak French, and I don't think people who don't are stupid. I think you're stupid if you can't roughly discern what "Etat Francais" might mean, i mean come on, just look at it.

I do speak French, and one of the biggest problems of English native non-speakers trying to understand French is the number of false friends. There are a lot of words in French that resemble the equivalent words in English, but there are also a lot of words that look like an English word but mean something totally different. So I wouldn't blame an English speaker for not assuming "etat" was "state".

 

[neusaap]

I do speak French, and one of the biggest problems of English native non-speakers trying to understand French is the number of false friends. There are a lot of words in French that resemble the equivalent words in English, but there are also a lot of words that look like an English word but mean something totally different. So I wouldn't blame an English speaker for not assuming "etat" was "state".

Dude, it's on a map, followed by Francais, on the geographical location of France (and their colonies perhaps, but I think France should still be traceable) and if you click on it you see a French flag with an axe on it. Then there's etat, now what would that mean, considering it's German Reich, but it doesn't sound like realm, maybe it's state.

And if you don't speak French you don't know about false friends

 

[Tempestra]

And if you don't speak French you don't know about false friends

Wouldn't that be an example of the ignorance you have so much distaste for?

 

[neusaap]

Wouldn't that be an example of the ignorance you have so much distaste for?

No, I have a distaste for nagging based on ignorance (not meaning you here, the people who'd 'start a thread 'bout what means etat).

That people are stupid enough to not lay the link etat-state is their problem, it's just not an argument to not call it etat, even though I think it shouldn't be recalled, at least not as etat francais, but French state would do for me...

 

[Tecrinarep]

As far as I know all country names in the game are in English, right ? I mean we can all read "Soviet Union" and not "Советский Союз", it's "GERMAN Reich" not "Deutsches Reich", "Nationalist Spain" instead of "Estado Español", why would Vichy make an exception ? I mean, French people love exceptions, but there's no need for it here.

 

[neusaap]

As far as I know all country names in the game are in English, right ? I mean we can all read "Soviet Union" and not "Советский Союз", it's "GERMAN Reich" not "Deutsches Reich", "Nationalist Spain" instead of "Estado Español", why would Vichy make an exception ? I mean, French people love exceptions, but there's no need for it here.

That's why I agree with every1 that it shouldn't be called EF

 

[Hidden Gunman]

Ignoring the sideline semantics and arguing over language, I've found the problem to be that 'France' and 'Vichy' are basically at war with each other from the moment of creation of Vichy, or soon after. That drags Frances allies into war with Vichy.

 

[draske]

Wow a lot of responses. Looking further at it, in my opinion Vichy should be neutral and probably not be a puppet of Germany. This would avoid puppet problems. Vichy could further align with the axis and send expeditionary forces or even join the Axis, and Germany should be able to absorb Vichy after x years.
Looking at this the option to take all of France instead of creating Vichy should not be offered. The option should be, create Vichy or continue the war and take all. That would be in my opinion the most historical correct option Take France out of the war early or keep on fighting the French, and especially the French navy.
The war between Free France and Vichy France could be a "limited war' (if the option exist). The allies could get involved with an event or any other way you can think off.
Just my 50 cents

 

[Secret Master]

Looking at this the option to take all of France instead of creating Vichy should not be offered. The option should be, create Vichy or continue the war and take all.

That's how it works now.

If you refuse to form Vichy, continental France is occupied by Germany, but the rest is still owned by the French Republic.

It just so happens that what Germany really wants is in continental France, and she can extract it with harsh occupation laws, so who cares if the French Republic controls North Africa or Indochina?

 

[BBBD316]

Well isn't the only reason really to form Vichy so that Japan can demand indochina?

Seeing as Japan will probably be in the Axis and at war with France anyway it is probably a moot point.

 

[Dalwin]

That's how it works now.

If you refuse to form Vichy, continental France is occupied by Germany, but the rest is still owned by the French Republic.

It just so happens that what Germany really wants is in continental France, and she can extract it with harsh occupation laws, so who cares if the French Republic controls North Africa or Indochina?

I believe what the previous poster meant was that if Vichy is declined then the Axis should have to fight for the rest of continental France. I would say the deciding factor is how the Vichy proposal is reached. Does the option only appear when France exceeds its NU, i.e. capitulates, or is it something that has a mean time to happen after the fall of Paris even if NU has not been exceeded?

(Without the context of a map or a geo-political discussion I could see someone guessing that Etat Francais mean French food. )

 

[BBBD316]

Well is the conquest of France that hard once the option for Vichy appears (excluding MP)?

Really you have the ML surrounded and are pouring towards the coasts, so it should be a no brainer.

(Well in Australia high school French, especially early on is about ordering food and just getting around. Plus it was 20 years ago.)

 

[Secret Master]

I believe what the previous poster meant was that if Vichy is declined then the Axis should have to fight for the rest of continental France. I would say the deciding factor is how the Vichy proposal is reached. Does the option only appear when France exceeds its NU, i.e. capitulates, or is it something that has a mean time to happen after the fall of Paris even if NU has not been exceeded?

I'm pretty sure the option fires around the time French surrender progress is at the breaking point anyway.

Other countries lose control of their continental possessions upon reaching the surrender threshold, so in this case, at the time Vichy fires, Germany would still be getting the whole enchilada anyway.

If you want to make Germany fight for the rest of continental France, I won't object. In most cases, it's just a question of time.

(I even tried a National Redoubt strategy in Brittany as the UK one time. My divisions couldn't even stop Germany along a three province front with total air superiority and lots of CAS. So, fighting for the rest of France isn't exactly rocket science once the surrender threshold is reached.)

 

[Cardus]

Historically Vichy was neutral after the Fall of France. It was exceedingly hostile towards the British, especially after Churchill ordered the French Navy in Africa sunk. They even bombed Gibraltar afterwards. The Free French declared war on Vichy and they had their own private little French war in some of the old French colonies. But Vichy only fought the Allies during Torch or when the Allies invaded a Vichy territory or colony, and that was always briefly and in defense. They never declared war on the Allies despite numerous provocations. Case Anton ended Vichy.

Gamewsie Vichy becomes a puppet and all puppets are called to war. The ai doesn't know that Vichy wasn't supposed to be able to create new forces or actually fight, it is just following the puppet code.

I am not sure. France was attacked everywhere possible (Syria, Dakar, Mers el Kebir, Madagascar, etc.) by the Allies. The country, maybe, did want to stay out of the war but the Allies had a different opinion. The issue is that Germany didn't allow a French rearmament so most of times the country succumbed.

 

[tommylotto]

Here is the trigger that starts the sequence that ultimately results in GER getting the option to create Vichy:

    trigger = {
        tag = FRA
        has_war_with = GER
        16 = { is_controlled_by = GER }
        is_in_faction_with = ENG
        ENG = { has_war_with = GER }
        surrender_progress > 0.7
        GER = {
            is_faction_leader = yes
        }
        NOT = {
            has_civil_war = yes
        }
    }

In my experience it seems to only happen after capitulation, but it appears it can theoretically happen before surrender -- when Germany occupies Paris (I'm assuming 16 is Paris) but for whatever reason does not yet have greater than 70% surrender progress.

 

[MKraemer]

Hmm. Keeping them out of the war would surely make a Mers el Kebir thing impossible to pull off: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Mers-el-Kébir

Just make it an event.