Vichy France goes immediately to war

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Tecrinarep

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I think Vichy should default to being neutral, although an event could lead to the creation of a volunteer division to join the Germans. (A shame there'd be no way to restrict that division to serving on the Eastern front). There should be a potential event chain that leads to Vichy outright joining the Axis, and probably another one that leads to it rejoining the Allies - if, for example, France is successfully re-invaded by the allies ahistorically early, there's little doubt that Vichy would have joined them.

I think the manpower given by the occupied northern France is enough to represent the SS division "Charlemagne". About Vichy joining the Allies I think low NU is enough too. What's the NU of Vichy France when it's created ?
 

ringhloth

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Vichy was neutral in some versions of HOI. It sometimes caused problems the other way.

In HOI4, if Vichy is neutral, it might be hard to let the Allies attack it, since Vichy would be generating no threat.
Wouldn't France have a reason to justify on them to take back their land? I thought that was how democracies work.
 

ForsakenSoldier

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While I would know what that is, I'd wager not enough people (who play the game in English) would understand what in the Hell that was.

Sometimes, Anglicization, when it comes to localization in English, is a necessity to prevent a thousand "Where is France? What does Etat mean?" threads on the forum/complaints on Steam.

People that stupid should just be ignored.
 
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Secret Master

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People that stupid should just be ignored.

Ignorance is not stupidity. There are plenty of people who don't know what those words mean in French, since they don't speak French. And given how often Vichy is used as a word to describe Petain's regime, it doesn't make someone stupid just because they don't know what the French State is in French.
 

Tecrinarep

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Even in France, "Régime de Vichy" or "France de Vichy" makes more sense than "Etat Français" for most people.
 

Meglok

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Historically Vichy was neutral after the Fall of France. It was exceedingly hostile towards the British, especially after Churchill ordered the French Navy in Africa sunk. They even bombed Gibraltar afterwards. The Free French declared war on Vichy and they had their own private little French war in some of the old French colonies. But Vichy only fought the Allies during Torch or when the Allies invaded a Vichy territory or colony, and that was always briefly and in defense. They never declared war on the Allies despite numerous provocations. Case Anton ended Vichy.

Gamewsie Vichy becomes a puppet and all puppets are called to war. The ai doesn't know that Vichy wasn't supposed to be able to create new forces or actually fight, it is just following the puppet code.
 
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Vincenzo_667

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Did they deploy divisions to help Germany? Because that's what the AI will do, and that's at least a minimum requirement for being considered a puppet in game. There were Slovakian divisions, who even participated in Operation Barbarossa, but I'm not aware of any Czech divisions under German control.
Nope. As poster above said there were some collaborants working with the Wehrmacht, but no czech divisions fought on the axis side. There were actually quite a few expeditionary czech forces fighting on the side of the allies though, most notoriously some great RAF pilots and SAS paratroopers under the british flag and infantry divisions under the Soviet Union flag.
I'd still like to see Reichsprotektorat Böhmen und Mähren somehow representent in the game, but considering current mechanics the best way to represent czech occupation is probably best left alone as it is now.
 

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But Vichy only fought the Allies during Torch or when the Allies invaded a Vichy territory or colony, and that was always briefly and in defense.

Which can't really happen unless Vichy is at war with the Allies.

So, we're back to square one.
 

Tecrinarep

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Which can't really happen unless Vichy is at war with the Allies.

So, we're back to square one.

I think those fights were too light to even be represented in the game. The armistice imposed strong restrictions to the Vichy army, it wasn't in any way a proper military instrument.
 

Meglok

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Which can't really happen unless Vichy is at war with the Allies.

So, we're back to square one.

Yep, without a lot of exceptions, special rules, and events, Vichy just won't be "historical". Vichy is a notorious problem in ww2 GS games. WiF has been arguing about it for about 20 years now, raw 8 might have it settled (if Harry ever decides raw 8 is finalized).

Vichy was such a messed up snafu that it can't even be modeled well in a game. Kind of at war with some Allies, working with the Germans when they had to, trying to stay neutral even when attacked, kissing America's tookus, trying pretend it was still a real major power, with all of the inherent touchy Gallic pride of France.
 
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Meglok

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I think those fights were too light to even be represented in the game. The armistice imposed strong restrictions to the Vichy army, it wasn't in any way a proper military instrument.

Some colonial garrisons did fight well. The first invasion of Dakar was bounced by the Vichy defenders. And the invasion of Madagascar was a tough fight. But Vichy considered each one a personal squabble with the FFF and British and did not declare war.

In HOI4, if you invade the tiniest speck of an island you have to declare war and the defender will join an opposing faction if possible. And the AI will use its manpower and factories to build if it has any. So instead of a joke Vichy has a small bite. If they ever fix the naval problems the Vichy Navy will be a major issue that will have to be dealt with. Mers El Kebir as an event anyone?
 

neusaap

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People that stupid should just be ignored.
So everybody who doesn't speak French is stupid? Nice
Well, while I agree with forsaken that not being able to put the link etat=state indicates a slightly ...limited... intellectual capacity and that it could therefore be done, I still think it shouldn't be called etat française, because then you get this CK2 stuff again where four to five countries get their native names and the rest their english names, which just doesn't look good. French state would be better than just Vichy France regardless of the circumstances though.

But for everyone, why not add an autonomy state specially for Vichy, one where they are allowed to refuse calls to arms (where they maybe even are allowed to fight wars themselves), so that, by 42/43 the allies may declare war on them as if they'd be an independent state, subsequently, Germany may occupy them to avoid a soft spot in their European defence plan.

Naamloos.png
 

The Nothing

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Should that game be hearts of iron 3, where everyone got a very limited number of divisions (compared to Germany 1000+ divisions in HoI IV), navies takes years to build (not like IV where we can build 2 carriers a year quite easily) and where the AI is quite cautious, then Vichy being at war with the Allies would totally make sense.

Vichy would start with all the french colonies under control and at war with the allies, and the allies would grab some of these colonies slowly with time passing, having much more important problems to deal with, like the war in north africa, or in asia.

Since HoI IV naval battle are way too much decisiv (by that I mean I've never seen a draw, each time, one navy utterly destroys the other with almost no loss, or there is no battle because one of these fleet just escape before fighting) you couldn't model the "small scale battles" involving at maximum one or two capital french ships against three or four british capital ships.

Between Vichy and the Allies, it was not a total war that was fought, more like a border war (Commie China and Nationalist China in HoI IV). However, having Vichy being totally neutral would still be a bit weird considering the number of fights that happened and the material loss of such battles.... As much as the material gains for the allies, an insane amount of auxiliary ships, and even some capital ones.
 

tommylotto

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Gamewise, Vichy could be broken up into several autonomous countries -- Vichy France, Vichy North Africa, Vichy Dakar, Vichy Madagascar, Vichy Syria, etc. Then the allies could get into hostilities with one without necessarily going to war with the entire French empire.
 

Telenil

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Gamewsie Vichy becomes a puppet and all puppets are called to war. The ai doesn't know that Vichy wasn't supposed to be able to create new forces or actually fight, it is just following the puppet code.
This. If Vichy is not a puppet, there is no reason whatsoever for the player to create it (well, apart from the flavour). If it is a puppet, then it will fight alongside the Axis. You could imagine some sort of nation that gives factories or resources but not manpower, but the game doesn't have that atm.

The solution to "fascist France is always called Vichy France" is easier : use cosmetic tags. Change the name of "fascist France" to something else, and if France is a puppet of Germany, set the name to Vichy France at that moment.
 
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Telenil

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I see. But I am little bit confused, because integrated puppets have to share its manpower with overlord. "Manpower shared with overlord: 100%" But what does it means? Are you sending the manpower? Is it used automatically by some share or must the overlord specifically use it?
This means 100% of the manpower in the division is substracted from the *puppet's* manpower pool. If you are the overlord and only train puppet division, your own manpower will not move at all. You have to use *your* equipment, but this is not much of a problem at integrated puppet since 75% of the puppet's factory are yours to use.
Note that if the integrated puppet ever switches back to puppet, possibly due to war contribution, you will have to instantly replace some of the manpower in puppet divisions with your own.

So, basically, you want to fill the ranks of your infantry with people from your integrated puppets (China, Russia and the United States provide lots of recruits for the front lines), up to the point their autonomy goes up as fast as you can keep it down.
 
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