Vichy France goes immediately to war

[draske]

In all my games to date Vichi France declares war immediate after being created. Is this supposed to happen ?
Vichi France is created as part of a peace deal. In my opinion it should not fight on the axis nor allied side from the start. Maybe get a national spirit which prevent it to join a war for the first x years.
What do you guys think ?

 

[Curwen]

Hmm. Keeping them out of the war would surely make a Mers el Kebir thing impossible to pull off: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Mers-el-Kébir

 

[DóD Budulín]

I think it is the same case as with The Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia (which could be by the way in the game, now when there is a mechanic of puppet states). These protectorates had de jure autonomy, but de facto everything was directed from Germany.

 

[Tempestra]

I think it is the same case as with The Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia (which could be by the way in the game, now when there is a mechanic of puppet states). These protectorates had de jure autonomy, but de facto everything was directed from Germany.

Did Germany direct Vichy forces to engage the Allies, though?

 

[DóD Budulín]

Did Germany direct Vichy forces to engage the Allies, though?

This is tough question. Vichy was officially neutral country (as The Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia I think). So in game its army should be neutral at least until 1942, when Wehrmacht occupied Vichy. Vichy was totalitair regime, but until that year 1942 in was actually quite free country. After 1942 however it really became puppet of the Germany.

Fun fact: Vichy officially controlled all of France and also big portion of its colonies. North and west parts of France was "just" under direct occupation of Wehrmacht.

 

[draske]

Vichi France is the result of an armistice between France and Germany. So their should be no hostilities between the Axis and Vichi France after creation. Vichi France can also not remain part of the allies as Germany created a separate armistice with France. The goal was to remove the French forces (and navy) from the war.
I agree that after 1942 the situation changes. If remember in HOI3 Vichi became neutral until 1942 - 1943

 

[Tecrinarep]

The Vichy government never declared war to the Allies. They only were a few fights where the Allies attacked, in North Africa and in Syria. The Vichy Army was not involved in the fights in France.

About Mers-el Kébir, I think it could be done via event.

 

[tommylotto]

There is not really a country called Vichy France in the game. Vichy France is the name for the fascist faction in a French civil war. After France surrenders, Germany get an event to either 1) take it all or 2) form Vichy. The mechanic used to form Vichy is just the start of a French civil war. So, Vichy starts at war with allies member France.

Not sure that is how I would handle it.

 

[Secret Master]

There is not really a country called Vichy France in the game.

Sure there is. I've played Vichy plenty of times. Just swap France's ideology to fascist, and she becomes Vichy regardless of whatever else is happening in the world.

It's actually a damn nuisance, as I'd much rather it be called the French state...

 

[ForsakenSoldier]

Sure there is. I've played Vichy plenty of times. Just swap France's ideology to fascist, and she becomes Vichy regardless of whatever else is happening in the world.

It's actually a damn nuisance, as I'd much rather it be called the French state...

or État Français

 

[tommylotto]

Sure there is. I've played Vichy plenty of times. Just swap France's ideology to fascist, and she becomes Vichy regardless of whatever else is happening in the world.

It's actually a damn nuisance, as I'd much rather it be called the French state...

That was my point... Vichy is not really a country, just the name for fascist France.

 

[Secret Master]

or État Français

While I would know what that is, I'd wager not enough people (who play the game in English) would understand what in the Hell that was.

Sometimes, Anglicization, when it comes to localization in English, is a necessity to prevent a thousand "Where is France? What does Etat mean?" threads on the forum/complaints on Steam.

 

[ringhloth]

I think it is the same case as with The Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia (which could be by the way in the game, now when there is a mechanic of puppet states). These protectorates had de jure autonomy, but de facto everything was directed from Germany.

Did they deploy divisions to help Germany? Because that's what the AI will do, and that's at least a minimum requirement for being considered a puppet in game. There were Slovakian divisions, who even participated in Operation Barbarossa, but I'm not aware of any Czech divisions under German control.

 

[DóD Budulín]

Did they deploy divisions to help Germany? Because that's what the AI will do, and that's at least a minimum requirement for being considered a puppet in game. There were Slovakian divisions, who even participated in Operation Barbarossa, but I'm not aware of any Czech divisions under German control.

There were no Czech division (just a few colaborants served in Wehrmacht). But I think that as puppet or integrated puppet you cannot build any division, because you are sending basically everything to your overlord.

 

[ringhloth]

There were no Czech division (just a few colaborants served in Wehrmacht). But I think that as puppet or integrated puppet you cannot build any division, because you are sending basically everything to your overlord.

You can, and the AI will. You don't transfer all of your industry, in fact, as a puppet, you don't send any of your industry, IIRC. Autonomous puppet, you will transfer a good portion of your MIC, but any amount will allow the AI to produce a handful of divisions. Having the Czechs integrated as a non-core state, while perhaps not technically correct, will still provide the closest historical representation. Also, the map would look much worse.

 

[Dalwin]

This Vichy thing gets worse if you expand it to a more general case. Those saying that it should not immediately join the war are of course correct. The devs have to have Vichy join the war immediately, however, because of another design "feature." You cannot declare war on a puppet, but instead must declare against the master. This little bit of nonsense means that if Italy does not call an Ethiopian puppet into the war, that area becomes a free zone for Italian forces. It cannot be attacked. The Allies are forced to push all the way up to the Ethiopian border and then garrison that border since they could be called into the war at any point Italy chooses.

If Vichy were not brought into the war immediately the same nonsense would apply there. The game must be changed to allow declarations against a puppet if you are already at war with the master. Once they fix that then it would be feasible to have Vichy enter in a neutral state as they should.

 

[DóD Budulín]

You can, and the AI will. You don't transfer all of your industry, in fact, as a puppet, you don't send any of your industry, IIRC. Autonomous puppet, you will transfer a good portion of your MIC, but any amount will allow the AI to produce a handful of divisions. Having the Czechs integrated as a non-core state, while perhaps not technically correct, will still provide the closest historical representation. Also, the map would look much worse.

I see. But I am little bit confused, because integrated puppets have to share its manpower with overlord. "Manpower shared with overlord: 100%" But what does it means? Are you sending the manpower? Is it used automatically by some share or must the overlord specifically use it?

If Vichy were not brought into the war immediately the same nonsense would apply there. The game must be changed to allow declarations against a puppet if you are already at war with the master. Once they fix that then it would be feasible to have Vichy enter in a neutral state as they should.

The question then is, if the AI (for example GB) won´t declare war on Vichy immediately (the other way around).

 

[Tempestra]

This is tough question...

Is it? I'd have said the answer was pretty clearly "no".

 

[DóD Budulín]

Is it? I'd have said the answer was pretty clearly "no".

Well yes it is. At least from the historical point of view. What I meant was how to transfer history into the current game mechanics. I didn't write it though... my bad.
So... how would you do that? Via some national spirits plus maybe some event? Should the Vichy be in Axis fraction (eventually Germans puppet) or should it be absolutely neutral?

 

[Tempestra]

I think Vichy should default to being neutral, although an event could lead to the creation of a volunteer division to join the Germans. (A shame there'd be no way to restrict that division to serving on the Eastern front). There should be a potential event chain that leads to Vichy outright joining the Axis, and probably another one that leads to it rejoining the Allies - if, for example, France is successfully re-invaded by the allies ahistorically early, there's little doubt that Vichy would have joined them.