Vichy France always independent?

[Gandi]

Hi!

This is my first game playing Germany. I'm currently using version 1.0, because I couldn't find a localized (german) patch to version 1.1. The patch pointed at here in the forum, led to some texts being displayed in spanish (I guess it is spanish).

Now, to my problems ;-)

When I was attacking France, I send my tanks to conquer the provinces west to the maginot line, so that these three heavily defended provinces were cut off from France. There was no connection to France and resupply by plane did not happen.

I thought, that I would now easily conquer these provinces, because the troops there would be unsupplied. The problem was, that they never ran out of supplies! I finally manged to conquer these provinces using a huge force, but it took a lot of time. I guess, this is a bug, correct?

Next one

After conquering enough provinces of France, I decided to set up a french puppet government in France when the corresponding event came up. To my dissapointment, Vichy-France is now independent and not my puppet as I had expected. This is not supposed to happen, isn't it?

I took a look at the event files. Event 2800 in france.txt secedes a bunch of provinces to Germany, which happend correctly in my game. And it also triggers event 4003 in vichy_france.txt.

This event is called "Independent Vichy France" in this file. There is no command which makes vichy a puppet of Germany, as it happened in history. I'm wondering why this is designed this way? It seems that Vichy-France is always independent. So, what's the point in letting Vichy-France constitute, if I may be forced to attack them later, when they join the Allies?

I hope someone can clear this up. Apart from the problems described above, HoI2 is a great game . It is clearly better than HoI1!

 

[boylinux]

I thought Vichy France was historically neutral?
The General that became president was a indescive bootlick but he really wasn't a german puppet.

 

[korny]

I never do the vichy event for this reason...

 

[unmerged(7238)]

I thought Vichy France was historically neutral?
The General that became president was a indescive bootlick but he really wasn't a german puppet.

Yep.
Even if practice, he collaborated with the Germans, bof, the Germans never got much from him.
Most important: all the Vichy territories (South France, North Africa, Syria before it got invaded, VietNam) remained German-Free.

If Vichy is to become an official Puppet, I _think_ that the Germans would have a total access to its territory, since it becomes automatically an ally ... Isn't it ?

 

[Spruce]

Yep.
Even if practice, he collaborated with the Germans, bof, the Germans never got much from him.
Most important: all the Vichy territories (South France, North Africa, Syria before it got invaded, VietNam) remained German-Free.

If Vichy is to become an official Puppet, I _think_ that the Germans would have a total access to its territory, since it becomes automatically an ally ... Isn't it ?

the Germans "occupied" at some point, so in practice it was a puppet. But in theory they were neutral

 

[unmerged(28147)]

the Germans "occupied" at some point, so in practice it was a puppet. But in theory they were neutral

I've heard that Vichy doesn't become a Puppet in game, and I've heard that it does, in my one game where I got the option, they became a puppet of Germany.

 

[unmerged(19246)]

In my current game as the US, I have troops sitting in North Africa waiting to invade Europe. When I looked across the Mediterranean, I was shocked to find that I was not in fact at war with Vichy France, eliminating those Vichy-controlled provinces as possible invasion points. And of course, with the US being a democracy, I can't DOW them. So now I suppose I have to wait for them to DOW me? And what happens if I eventually invade and conquer Italy and Germany? Will Vichy France remain a legitimate nation in Europe?

 

[unmerged(28147)]

In my current game as the US, I have troops sitting in North Africa waiting to invade Europe. When I looked across the Mediterranean, I was shocked to find that I was not in fact at war with Vichy France, eliminating those Vichy-controlled provinces as possible invasion points. And of course, with the US being a democracy, I can't DOW them. So now I suppose I have to wait for them to DOW me? And what happens if I eventually invade and conquer Italy and Germany? Will Vichy France remain a legitimate nation in Europe?

I've seen an event for France that eliminates Vichy and gives it back to France.

 

[unmerged(15801)]

In response to the first question, with regards to the troops at the Maginot Line remaining in supply: In HOI1 there was actually a land connection between, IIRC, the southern-most Maginot Line province (the name escapes me at the moment) and Besancon. I'm not sure if this connection still exists in HOI2, but you should be able to find out by clicking on the Maginot Line province whose name I cannot remember.

The land connection is actually a very narrow one, and at first glance it may appear that Maginot is cut off, but in actuality it is not.

 

[unmerged(19246)]

I've seen an event for France that eliminates Vichy and gives it back to France.

Okay. But that still doesn't address the issue that Vichy might just sit there untouched until the Axis nations lose. It just doesn't jive with history (and yes, I know that there are many threads here with the same complaint). But in reality, the US invasion of North Africa was into Vichy territory. Under these circumstances, that cannot happen.

 

[unmerged(28147)]

In response to the first question, with regards to the troops at the Maginot Line remaining in supply: In HOI1 there was actually a land connection between, IIRC, the southern-most Maginot Line province (the name escapes me at the moment) and Besancon. I'm not sure if this connection still exists in HOI2, but you should be able to find out by clicking on the Maginot Line province whose name I cannot remember.

The land connection is actually a very narrow one, and at first glance it may appear that Maginot is cut off, but in actuality it is not.

If you're speaking of the Maginot line province it's Mulhouse that's the furthest south, and Besancon is the one with the connection, which I'm pretty sure the connection still exists.

 

[unmerged(28147)]

Okay. But that still doesn't address the issue that Vichy might just sit there untouched until the Axis nations lose. It just doesn't jive with history (and yes, I know that there are many threads here with the same complaint). But in reality, the US invasion of North Africa was into Vichy territory. Under these circumstances, that cannot happen.

The only solution I can present to you is an event in which Vichy loses North Africa to the USA. But that would probably screw up the event I mentioned to you. Another possibility is to retool everything for Vichy so they only get the mainland provinces and then as part of the Vichy event chain have a French Algeria country be made using one of the user defined countries. But that would require alot of work for the second option.

 

[unmerged(19246)]

The only solution I can present to you is an event in which Vichy loses North Africa to the USA. But that would probably screw up the event I mentioned to you. Another possibility is to retool everything for Vichy so they only get the mainland provinces and then as part of the Vichy event chain have a French Algeria country be made using one of the user defined countries. But that would require alot of work for the second option.

I understand. I guess it comes back to the earlier post that mentioned that the African Vichy territories stayed German-free during the war, and having Vichy independent maintains that. But in HoI1, Vichy was a German puppet in every game I played... or at least in those in which it wasn't annexed... and they became part of the Axis and at war with the Allies. That seemed more realistic to me, at least from the standpoint of making strategic decisions about troop movements. This current version seems unrealistic, and I think that if it were changed so Vichy does become a puppet and therefore a member of the Axis, it would be an improvement. And even though the Vichy Africa territories would be open to the Germans, I seriously doubt the AI or any human player would often take advantage of those regions.

 

[dconner]

What are the gameplay drawbacks, if any, to making Vichy an Axis puppet? Does anybody have or know of a home-brewed event that will do that?

It's a tricky situation under the rules of the game, because in real life, it seems Vichy was in a kind of limbo too. Axis and Allies both treated Vichy France as neutral... but only "sort of." When there was an important reason *not* to treat Vichy as neutral, they didn't.

The more I think about it, the more the HoI1 style Vichy makes sense, even if it's not perfect.

Maybe there are other ways to model it based on the current HoI2 event, though? Like give it a German Guarantee of Independence, but increase the likelihood that the Allies might declare war on it somehow?

 

[unmerged(28147)]

I understand. I guess it comes back to the earlier post that mentioned that the African Vichy territories stayed German-free during the war, and having Vichy independent maintains that. But in HoI1, Vichy was a German puppet in every game I played... or at least in those in which it wasn't annexed... and they became part of the Axis and at war with the Allies. That seemed more realistic to me, at least from the standpoint of making strategic decisions about troop movements. This current version seems unrealistic, and I think that if it were changed so Vichy does become a puppet and therefore a member of the Axis, it would be an improvement. And even though the Vichy Africa territories would be open to the Germans, I seriously doubt the AI or any human player would often take advantage of those regions.

Another option would be for an event to fire giving the USA access(Military access) to Vichy territory, but this wouldn't limit it to North Africa only.

 

[General Guisan]

I've heard that Vichy doesn't become a Puppet in game, and I've heard that it does, in my one game where I got the option, they became a puppet of Germany.

In Hoi2 Patch 1.01 they DON'T get puppet status...

 

[unmerged(28147)]

In Hoi2 Patch 1.01 they DON'T get puppet status...

Okay, that explains why my one game it did. It was Version 1.00.

 

[unmerged(37617)]

What are the gameplay drawbacks, if any, to making Vichy an Axis puppet?

After the Vichy event, if Vichy were a German puppet, all of their colonies would simply be invaded and taken over which is a-historical. Vichy simply can't defend itself very well. They seem to get some of the French navy, but have to start building land forces on their own. In the Core rules for HOI 1, Vichy was nuetral. It actually works much better because as Germany, you don't have to worry about British invasion from the Med into France.

I have started my 2nd HOI2 game as Germany and am slowly wooing Vichy into my sphere of influence. Has anyone tried to get them to join the axis after the fact?

Actually have a pretty good game going. Poland in 2 weeks (actually had USSR execute the pact BEFORE poland surrendered!). Denmark by January '40. Belguim and France by April '40. Left the Netherlands intact and have them up to 100 relations. Norway in May '40. Expecting Sea Lion in July '40 (pressing my luck because there is still a good bit of British Navy, but I want to get it in before winter). I am also working on the Soviet and have our relations up to about 70. If I can get the British Isles by September, I will paradrop into Gibralter and land in Africa. Damn Italians are in a stalemate against the British and I might as well claim Suez for myself anyway.

 

[Blackthorne]

After the Vichy event, if Vichy were a German puppet, all of their colonies would simply be invaded and taken over which is a-historical. Vichy simply can't defend itself very well. They seem to get some of the French navy, but have to start building land forces on their own. In the Core rules for HOI 1, Vichy was nuetral. It actually works much better because as Germany, you don't have to worry about British invasion from the Med into France.

I have started my 2nd HOI2 game as Germany and am slowly wooing Vichy into my sphere of influence. Has anyone tried to get them to join the axis after the fact?

Actually have a pretty good game going. Poland in 2 weeks (actually had USSR execute the pact BEFORE poland surrendered!). Denmark by January '40. Belguim and France by April '40. Left the Netherlands intact and have them up to 100 relations. Norway in May '40. Expecting Sea Lion in July '40 (pressing my luck because there is still a good bit of British Navy, but I want to get it in before winter). I am also working on the Soviet and have our relations up to about 70. If I can get the British Isles by September, I will paradrop into Gibralter and land in Africa. Damn Italians are in a stalemate against the British and I might as well claim Suez for myself anyway.

A lot of Vichy's colonies were overrun. Syria, Lebanon, North Africa (the Vichy troops actually fought the US).

 

[Gandi]

If you're speaking of the Maginot line province it's Mulhouse that's the furthest south, and Besancon is the one with the connection, which I'm pretty sure the connection still exists.

Exactly. Besancon belonged to me as well. Believe me, there was no land connection to the three encircled provinces. And to repeat it, resuplly by air did not happen.

The french divisions had no drain on their effectiveness due to supply shortage.