Will there be any events to cover the sinking of the french fleet after the fall of france? Historically the RN did do quite a job on the Vichy fleet, yet there was no declaration of war to go with it.
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I think there should be two events (but I never saw them in the game):
- the Dakar "battle", which I think you are referring, when Royal Navy ships bombed French ships causing much damage and many losses;
- the Toulon "self-sinking", when during winter 1942-43 Germany and Italy invaded Vichy, (Vichy) French ships sank themselves not to be taken by Axis powers.
- the Dakar "battle", which I think you are referring, when Royal Navy ships bombed French ships causing much damage and many losses;
- the Toulon "self-sinking", when during winter 1942-43 Germany and Italy invaded Vichy, (Vichy) French ships sank themselves not to be taken by Axis powers.
Antiochus V said:
Our policy with CORE is to not create events which simulate individual battles.
There is also the usual questions about how to write the event(s) so there won't be strange problems. These include how do we guarentee that the ships are where we say they are? The random damage/sink command can't just target a specific port so you might end up sinking a ship that is in the Far East or some other really strange location. How do we know that the British will have forces in the area of significant strength to carry out the mission that we scripted.
All of these problems in addition to our policy mean that we won't be making those events. MDow
Could there be a DOW on Vichy by the Allies. While it would not be hostorical diplomatically (I think [???]), it would allow such things (ship sinkings) to occur.
Finally, if the Italy surrenders-Germany Occupies Vichy events do not fire correctly, there would still be a way to get rid of Vichy.
Maybe I am losing my mind but wasn't Operation Torch against Vichy occupied territories (if so, the allies would not be able to do such a thing in the game since Vichy is completly neutral, which was not exactly the case [?])?
Finally, if the Italy surrenders-Germany Occupies Vichy events do not fire correctly, there would still be a way to get rid of Vichy.
Maybe I am losing my mind but wasn't Operation Torch against Vichy occupied territories (if so, the allies would not be able to do such a thing in the game since Vichy is completly neutral, which was not exactly the case [?])?
MateDow said:
The British sinking of French fleet shortly after the fall of france does pose an awkward problem. As it was not accompanied by a DOW, so it cannot be recreated by the UK player in the same circumstances. The actual operation was a bit one sided, so arguably it would be more appropriate as an event not a battle.
The reason for the sinking was the fear that Germany might try to seize the Vichy fleet. This too could arguably be represented by event. Perhaps Vichy France could be given the option to hand the fleet over to the UK?
Antiochus V said:
I seriously doubt that Germany would let Vichy just hand over the fleet. I believe that Pétain would suffer less from letting the UK sink the French navy.
The French scuttled it at Toulous rather than hand it over to the Germans in 1942 I think it was.
Sir Humphrey said:
To have the British sink during peace time or the Vichy government scuttling it, can only really be represented accurately by events. A human UK will struggle to persuade the AI to scuttle its fleet by normal means. And without declaring war ahistorically early (and even then only by cheating) there is no means for the UK to sink the Vichy fleet.
But its impossible to write events and make it historically/realistically acceptable. So Britain and Vichy should be at war to solve the problem.
For the moment, we are probably going to accept the fact that Vichy will keep the fleet until we can determine a way to neuter it. If we make VIchy an active participant you are going to have the Allies picking off pieces at will. Vichy never has been good at defending her African colonies and that would be more ahistorical than the retention of the fleet. Now with luck we will have a series of events which creates a Free Frech force in addition to the Vichy French. Maybe as a part of that we can do a better job of dealing with the naval forces. MDow
Actually, the Vichy colonial forces historically did not do all that much in the way of fighting. The Axis/Vichy relationship was one that existed purely as a matter of compromise --- the Germans had fewer occupation problems with the existence of Vichy and could attend to other affairs as a result, while France was able to salvage some national pride and independence by preventing itself from becoming totally occupied.
The result was that French colonial troops would usually put up the minimum expected resistance against Allied attack, and then surrender citing any excuse they could think of. At the beginning of Operation Torch, for example, the Vichy forces covering the beaches at Morocco fought until the US troops got sufficiently inland, and then not only surrendered, but the staff officers began advising the Americans as to what errors they had been making during their first combat amphibious assault. This information proved valuable in later landings on Sicily and on the "Italian Boot" at Anzio.
The result was that French colonial troops would usually put up the minimum expected resistance against Allied attack, and then surrender citing any excuse they could think of. At the beginning of Operation Torch, for example, the Vichy forces covering the beaches at Morocco fought until the US troops got sufficiently inland, and then not only surrendered, but the staff officers began advising the Americans as to what errors they had been making during their first combat amphibious assault. This information proved valuable in later landings on Sicily and on the "Italian Boot" at Anzio.
Calbeck said:
This information proved valuable in Sicily, in Salerno and in Anzio, but evidently Americans did not listen to: all those landings were badly made, and in everyone without full air superiority and heavy (and precise) naval fire American troops would have been badly defeated in a few days if not hours.
The problems with the UK and Vichy being at war from moment 1 are...
#1. The UK can quickly swallow up Vichy territories, one by one, giving them access to raw materials.
#2. Invariably Vichy would join the Axis, meaning that French Vichy Divisions could be found on the Atlantic Wall, or even as far as Russia.
It is best to deal with Vichy through a series of smaller events, with some actions being best left out due to difficulty to model.
#1. The UK can quickly swallow up Vichy territories, one by one, giving them access to raw materials.
#2. Invariably Vichy would join the Axis, meaning that French Vichy Divisions could be found on the Atlantic Wall, or even as far as Russia.
It is best to deal with Vichy through a series of smaller events, with some actions being best left out due to difficulty to model.