Vic got trashed!

[unmerged(12680)]

I think Paradox should continue to develop complex game but the main point is that the game should be accompanied with a manual thick as a bible to give the players who

a) aren’t familiar with a Paradox game
b) who can´t devote much time or even find the forum here a chance to understand the full potential of the game.

Another problem was (fixed) that the game in its original state was too unbalanced. If it had come out in the shape it is currently in it would have much better though some minor flaws still remain. I am a bit surprised that this wasn’t noticed during the beta testing stage.

However I have been playing the game a lot and I really do enjoy it and it has a lot of potential when the last problems are fixed. Sadly I guess that a little more focus on the “packaging part” would have given the game a lot more backing on the market that it actually deserves

I second that. I love complex games, but I also love really thick manuals! And good documentation would also certainly help new players get into the game(s). If nothing else can be done, a big .pdf file would be really nice, I could always print it...

 

[unmerged(16875)]

That doesn't change the fact that Paradox's business model is completely screwed up. Paradox is currently leaning in the direction of building their games with an eye towards their hardcore fans, the same ones that tend to hang out on company message boards. As such, they're permanently locking themselves out of a larger market that they could possibly break into if one of their games was polished enough, and clear enough, to merit an 80-average from reviewers.

Yes. We have come to realise that too. EU2 was probably the limit of complexity to get 80+ ratings. Victoria is perhaps too advanced for most people.

This is the worst news I've seen in a long time. I need someone to reassure me that Johan DIDN'T just indicate that Paradox games are going FPS on us.

 

[unmerged(12680)]

This is the worst news I've seen in a long time. I need someone to reassure me that Johan DIDN'T just indicate that Paradox games are going FPS on us.

CK is still in the making, maybe it's delayed because they're introducing the Doom III engine!! :rofl:

 

[Spruce]

I think that Johan and co must continue the games with 2 levels of game play. The top where all the action and cinema is going on and a basement level where you go sometimes - after hard and deep thinking - to change something basically,

there's still a difference in making good games and presenting them as good games.

It's like on television quiz's where people were asked what kind of studies they liked during childhood. Always there's a reaction when the guy says "mathematics".

I don't want to compare the game with math, but I want to compare it with the fact the human brain always fragments facts into smaller side facts when information about the topic grows,

so yo see the following when you read a victoria review or reading the box info,

victoria - female name - about history - complex - freedom - micro management - much to do - what is the goal here ? - too much to do for nothing - and then the link fails,

it should be something more like this =

victoria - female name - about history - 1835 to 1920 - Lenin and communism - american civil war - become a confederate communist state, funny? - how to - atheism - how to - social and culture revolution - how to - research - how to - clerks - how to - upgrade pops - how to - get needed resources - how to - get good economy - how to - invest at right time - how to - start the game - how to - buy the game - how to become confederacy - there's a scenario - buy most definately the game,

perhaps not all of us have the reaction to get to "buy this game",

perhaps if the game magazines would say it's fun to play and always a different game - that plays very intuitive (after getting the basics),

the amount of people playing the game will increase,

the primary objective of a game magazine is to sell magazines, not to deliver the best and most objective reviews,

 

[unmerged(15665)]

Good lord I can never understand a thing you say Spruce, but I enjoy trying.

I don't think Victoria's complexity is totally insurmountable, its just that its not very user friendly. There is a wealth of information you'll never know because its undocumented, and without that knowledge certain aspects of the game get very frustrating. The biggest improvements Paradox could make for their next title would be, a demo, a tutorial, and a manual that includes all of those little hidden nuances. If there is a problem with doing a demo because of the open source nature of the game, close it for the demo. If past tutorials have been bad, make a better one, or hire Rafiki : ) . If there is a page limitation for the manual do a nice in-depth .pdf. Once people get a better grasp of these things it is much easier to attract the un-initiated.

 

[Dinsdale]

I don't know where the idea that complex=bad reviews comes from. Plenty of complex strategy games get good scores at mainstream review sites.

 

[Dagfinn]

Screw them, but take their money first

Yes. We have come to realise that too. EU2 was probably the limit of complexity to get 80+ ratings. Victoria is perhaps too advanced for most people.

Screw them, but take their money first

Vic is just as good/complex as I hoped it would be. I gladly pay two to three times more for it. Hopfully Paradox will continue with theese type of games.

There should be an alternativ to those of us that do not play Warcraft or Doom...

Keep up the good work, Johan.

 

[maddog0606]

I don't mind complex games. In fact I love complex games. They make me think (even though that makes my head hurt sometimes). The problem for me when it comes to complex games is the manual. Does the manual explain the interface of the game well? Does it describe how the game works in a way I can understand?

It has been a while since I bought EU1 (walked into EB, saw the game, waited about a couple weeks and bought it anyway). I kind of liked the manual. It wasn't a bad manual. But the forums were better at explaining things. Because I understood how to play EU1, EU2 was easy (again the forums helped a lot). HOI is a different story. I hate HOI. Never could get into HOI and I am a big WW2 nut. For some reason I like Vic. Both Vic and HOI seem to be about the same level of complexity. At first I found Vic complicated to the point where I was about to uninstall it but I started to read the forum and get an understanding of how Vic worked (something I really did not do for HOI). Because of that I started to like the game. If I did not have access to the forum (no internet or not savy enough to find the site) I would have trashed the game (garbage and not review).

The manual for Vic, to say the least, is not the best it could be. And I can understand why it would get bad reviews. The manual for Vic did not answer: Does it explain the interface of the game well? Does it describe how the game works in a way I can understand? The forum answered these questions. That is really not how it is suppose to be.

I buy games from Paradox because of the type of games they provide (complexity level, fun level) and not the state of the manual. If I used the manual has a yardstick they would never get any money from me again.

 

[mvsnconsolegene]

CK is still in the making, maybe it's delayed because they're introducing the Doom III engine!! :rofl:

:rofl: ahahahahahaha! :rofl:

I can imagine the advertisements:

"Build large fleets and then jump into the battle a watch them burn."

"Research up to 12 hardcore amazing personal weapons, including the all powerful Crusader BFG 1000."

"Take personal control of any king between the years 1000 and 1400, and take out entire enemy countries."

- MVSN

 

[Claude Luster]

PC Gamer has a hard time giving anything over 70 to something that's not a FPS.

That I agree with. It used to be, about 4 years ago, maybe three games a year would get over a 90%...now...in about every issue, three games get over a 90%. PC Gamer's standards have declined. They definitely give the impression that the only games worth playing are SOE or first person shooters.

C.L.

 

[unmerged(16676)]

Yes. We have come to realise that too. EU2 was probably the limit of complexity to get 80+ ratings. Victoria is perhaps too advanced for most people.

I don't think so, I think really the problem is user interface.

Many of the actions of your game engine involve an amzing amount of minutia, and smaller things are not obvious.

For example, if you allowed a queue for building divisions and ships, this would make things a lot easier, and some of the build and action menus are tedious. To make 10 transports for example, you gave to click on the military screen, then click on the ship build section, scroll down to transport (and it's easy to lose your hold if you left the mouse button slip), select it, and then press build, and repeat this ten times!
TEDIUM.
Can't you make the interface display all unit types without scrolling, and allow you to queue, even if you lack the resources, when you get them, the desired unit would be built.

In the diplo screen, when you make a treaty and want to have a country its no good against, you have to scroll through a long list of nations. Couldn't the list be alphabatized, and a space provided to simply type the country you want to exclude? This again, cuts doen on tedium.

You have many subscreens, but couldn't one of them rank the nations in power order? I often have to hunt around to see who is in the top 8, ect.

Lastly, have you considered an ingame encyclopedia to the game, that players can click?
Rafiki has an excellent web site that would include all you would need for such an interface, and this would help immensly in ease of play.

One last thing, since I just remembered, allow LARGER TYPEFACE on messages and events.
They are VERY small and hard to read, you can blow up the map, why not messages?

I think all of this would help a lot for ease of play and improve ratings.

 

[unmerged(25273)]

Paradox Games are great, whether press realizes or not

Victoria is a brilliant game, whatever moans there may be over details and as far as I am concerned way more interesting than most of the highly rated top games in mainstream game magazines. Anno 1602 was generally praised ....and only lasted on my harddisk for 2 hours as it was not pauseable.
Magazines do, as Vulture says, advertise the instant jaw dropping graphic intensive stuff. How about long-term motivation though? IMHO German magazines promote sales of German, US and some other large publishers. I only spotted EU in shop, never read about it. EU2 had poor rating.
Well - I stopped raeding the magazines and rather spent my time with Paradox games.

 

[Darkrenown]

To make 10 transports for example, you gave to click on the military screen, then click on the ship build section, scroll down to transport (and it's easy to lose your hold if you left the mouse button slip), select it, and then press build, and repeat this ten times!
TEDIUM.
...
You have many subscreens, but couldn't one of them rank the nations in power order? I often have to hunt around to see who is in the top 8, ect.

Stupid reviewers(just kidding ) not learning to play the game. To make 10 transports at once just set it up to build one and then change the quantity to 10. To see who is in the top 8 just hit F1 or look on page on in the ledger.

But yes, the interface could be more friendly, epecially when provinces have to change hands. I'd also like sticky menus when building troops so when you go back in it is set how you left it.

 

[unmerged(3856)]

Back to a low cost, multi-language manual for a moment. I personally would not object to a brief printed manual to explain the interface. The cd, however should contain a detailed file in pdf or similar format which explains all the ins and outs of what is going on. If this file could be linked to an in-game encyclopedia that would really be terrific!

 

[unmerged(16676)]

Stupid reviewers(just kidding ) not learning to play the game. To make 10 transports at once just set it up to build one and then change the quantity to 10. To see who is in the top 8 just hit F1 or look on page on in the ledger.

I wasn't clear, I meant if you don't have enough resources, you still could select, say, ten, and they would be built as materials become available.

The F1 thing I didn't know about, thanks.
The entire country list in numerical order would be nice also.

 

[Darkrenown]

I wasn't clear, I meant if you don't have enough resources, you still could select, say, ten, and they would be built as materials become available.

Hmm, I suppose that could be useful. I'd proably just save up my resources and buy them together anything though for ease of deploying and keeping trake of my expenses.

The F1 thing I didn't know about, thanks.
The entire country list in numerical order would be nice also.

That's where page 1 of the ledger comes in

 

[unmerged(16676)]

It's about ease of play, say you want ten infantry divisons with artty brigades, instead of having to go reset your trade settings till the goods build up (which means changing all the ings those divisions need), you could just set it, and as you have enough, a division is built.

EASIER my friend, less hassle.

I dislike page one of the ledger, I hate scrolling around to find what I want to know.

 

[unmerged(16133)]

It's about ease of play, say you want ten infantry divisons with artty brigades, instead of having to go reset your trade settings till the goods build up (which means changing all the ings those divisions need), you could just set it, and as you have enough, a division is built.

EASIER my friend, less hassle.

I dislike page one of the ledger, I hate scrolling around to find what I want to know.

I see the one point you are makeing, (like setting up extra divisions in HOI that will start when the last unit was finished) but the problem i see is if you do that setting and it uses something like Leadership if you forget because of how long ago you set it up to build maybe 2 or 3 gameing sessions ago then create officers to get some leadership only to have it eaten by the units could be annoying, but would definately be less hassle.

page 1 you hate scrolling around? well if i remember correctly you can sort in both directions, in multiple catagories. includeing overall rank name rank in specific catagory.

 

[Darkrenown]

page 1 you hate scrolling around? well if i remember correctly you can sort in both directions, in multiple catagories. includeing overall rank name rank in specific catagory.

Yes, that was my point, and you've hit the nail on the head about why I would prefer to build in the normal manner. Other may like what fez suggests, but I personally would not.

 

[unmerged(16676)]

Well, it's something I think would add to ease of play, but hardly critical.

For myself, I'd also very much like the abilty to zoom messages and also zoom build screens, I wear glasses to read, its very difficult for me to read the tiny printing on many messages and screens, I think these little details matter.