Viable carrier heavy fleets?

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

macegee

Second Lieutenant
23 Badges
Oct 8, 2012
125
92
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
Hey there!

It appears that the carrier-heavy fleets are currently inferior to other types, is that true? If not, what are the setups I should look into? Grouping CVs with missiles to spam enemy's PD? Anything else, maybe some tactical tips?

Also, is there any word from the devs about how they feel about carrier ship balance?

Thanks!
 
  • 2
Reactions:

Milten

General
78 Badges
Sep 20, 2011
1.948
8.770
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Magicka
  • King Arthur II
  • Impire
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • 500k Club
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Cities: Skylines
It appears that the carrier-heavy fleets are currently inferior to other types, is that true?
Yes, more or less.
If not, what are the setups I should look into? Grouping CVs with missiles to spam enemy's PD?
Maximize amount of hangars in combination with matter disintegrators (though the latter is a bit problematic because Unbidden) to make use of shield penetration. Though in the end it's just high risk - low reward situation. It's not that powerful against ships with other weapon type, but completely useless against enemy with flak cannons.
You can use carriers as support choice, but that's suboptimal RP choice, nothing more.
 

The Founder

Field Marshal
55 Badges
Mar 13, 2013
13.053
3.164
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Surviving Mars
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Deluxe edition
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • BATTLETECH
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Warlock 2: Wrath of the Nagas
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Major Wiki Contributor
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Ancient Space
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars Pre-Order
  • Imperator: Rome
Fighters are effectively mobile PD and quite usefull corvette swarm counters. Largely because corvettes do not carry any PD and they have decent tracking.
Bombers in turn work better against bigger, armored and shielded ships.
One special property is that you can swap out bombers and figthers cost-free, so the retrofit would also be quick.

But even with that, they still underperform. They take as long to deal damage as missiles, are even harder countered by PD as they do not come back after being shoot down.
 

Agamemnic

Major
23 Badges
Jun 21, 2016
514
408
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • BATTLETECH
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
Tried a carrier build. three times. Never again.

Even with very minimal PD, an opponent will make very short work of you. I was googling combinations to make carriers viable for ages and still come up short.

Just like missiles, they need a buff from the devs
 

Wyrm

General
35 Badges
Dec 7, 2003
1.801
1.484
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
Bombers are fairly good vs The Unbidden because they rely 100% on shields

They are also somewhat useful vs orbital stations if you get them early on since they have no PD. (late-game stations are too weak to make a difference)


They could be given an interesting role if they would be able to launch attacks from anywhere within a system against stations and other targets without the fleet having to enter combat otherwise.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

KopiG

Major
28 Badges
Jun 17, 2016
745
389
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars Pre-Order
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
For PVE only my thoughts:
The problem is with the power of kinetics. Try to to equip the following BS ONLY fleet:
All Kinetic Artillery + Giga Canon. It has insane range and obliterates anything before it can shoot back. With this setup you can even win fights where the enemy has more fleet power due to abusing that your range is insane. If you pair it with an admiral who is "cautious" (+10% weapon range) and maybe he gets an aggressive trait, you are golden, you migth even wreck fleets which are supposed to be 50% stronger (i.e. 50% more fleet power compared to yours).
Currently the Battleship meta still absolutely dominates the PVE scene. Do not get fooled by people who tell you to mix the fleet. That is a huge lie. The strongest fleet you can get is a pure BS only fleet with the above setup. As the battleships and cruisers melt from your kinetic batteries, the remaining corvettes and destroyers will be no match for your BS fleet anyway.

EDIT: So to summarize why is it so insanely powerful: insane range + best DPS of the 3 weapon types + instant damage! These make it unbeatable.
 

Ilanin

Second Lieutenant
44 Badges
Jun 11, 2012
161
41
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Magicka 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
The fundamental problem with carriers in the Stellaris combat engine is that the point of carriers is that a) strike craft can engage from well beyond the range of other weaponry, so carriers can attack without getting shot at, and b) strike craft act as recon assets, enabling you to locate an enemy fleet without also being located yourself.

In Stellaris, you always know where everything is in any system you have any assets in, and strike craft are sufficiently slow that carriers actually engage after gun-line battleships at the moment. Given this, it seems unlikely that carriers will be worth having until/unless combat is fundamentally redone.
 
  • 5
Reactions:

PAnZuRiEL

Field Marshal
84 Badges
Dec 27, 2012
2.784
1.692
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Magicka
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • 500k Club
  • War of the Roses
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
I used carrier battleships with XL prow weapons and found the combination worked just fine. But I guess I couldn't really say with confidence that the hangar bays were necessary or even especially helpful. I just liked having them.
 

Wyrm

General
35 Badges
Dec 7, 2003
1.801
1.484
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
The fundamental problem with carriers in the Stellaris combat engine is that the point of carriers is that a) strike craft can engage from well beyond the range of other weaponry, so carriers can attack without getting shot at, and b) strike craft act as recon assets, enabling you to locate an enemy fleet without also being located yourself.

In Stellaris, you always know where everything is in any system you have any assets in, and strike craft are sufficiently slow that carriers actually engage after gun-line battleships at the moment. Given this, it seems unlikely that carriers will be worth having until/unless combat is fundamentally redone.

I don't even think combat needs to be fundamentally redone. It needs two things: First, you need to keep moving your fleet despite it being engaged. That way, you can keep outranging an enemy fleet and out-manouver them if an all-out battle is undesirable. A faster fleet would be able to escape without emergency-FTL

Then, you need to get rid of this weird system of having a radious that ships engage eachother from. A fleet would not wait until the enemy is within weapons range before starting to manouver into fire positions or deploy strike craft. Flees should start getting combat ready as soon as they enter an enemy system. Possibly have this behavior player-controlled through fleet-stances that can be toggled.

Besides that, everything can remain more or less the same.
 

Ilanin

Second Lieutenant
44 Badges
Jun 11, 2012
161
41
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Magicka 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
Those two ideas would certainly help, though I think to have a reason to build carriers again you'd probably need to add a third tweak. That is, to make systems a lot bigger relative to weapons ranges (this would also help with giving people room to manoeuvre). Currently battleships engage from several planetary orbital ranges apart. The question of how the hell anybody ever hits an independently-moving target at ranges of light-minutes aside, this also means that it's not really plausible for a carrier to be able to do what carriers are for, which is to sit well outside of weapons range and launch bomber strikes at people, simply because "well outside of weapons range" is in the next system over.
 
  • 2
Reactions:

Malecord

Graf
66 Badges
May 13, 2016
802
937
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders II
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Magicka 2
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II
Besides that, everything can remain more or less the same.

I only disagree with this one.

Combat definitely needs rework. Is not on top of the list, the game can be played as it is now. But there is just to much stuff that is useless or not enough useful (just look at this thread topic) and there is the always present deathball and stations/defense issues. Eventually it will be addressed.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

Wyrm

General
35 Badges
Dec 7, 2003
1.801
1.484
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
Well, I believe increased in-system mobility for fleets (combined with reduced FTL-speeds) would add more tactical considerations to the game as well as force splitting up of fleets in order to catch the enemy fleets.

And I also agree that scaling needs to be changed a bit so an advantage in range for strike craft (and possible also missiles) will be more meaningful. Having a range advantage would somewhat mitigate the hard-countering effect of PD. You would be able to harass enemy fleets with relatively low risk as long as you can run away.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

Cordane

GW/SC/PD/Flak Wonk
16 Badges
Sep 25, 2013
621
351
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
Having a range advantage would somewhat mitigate the hard-countering effect of PD. You would be able to harass enemy fleets with relatively low risk as long as you can run away.
The problem is that currently PD is not strong mitigation (i.e., low damage from missiles), it's a hard counter (i.e., NO damage gets through even to the shields and armor). A missile/strike craft fleet that is hoping to do hit-and-run is going to do virtually no damage before they have to bail in advance of any counter-attack. I've put together a number of other posts that are aimed at making missiles and strike craft more legitimate (this is a big one) - hopefully a good number of those can be implemented.
 

zanaikin

Captain
32 Badges
Sep 13, 2012
487
281
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
As much as launching strike craft early might help, it's still not going to make them useful against a fleet prepared for them (aka large numbers of PD/flak). But then, hey, it's pretty realistic too... we're just getting a space version of the Great Marianas Turkey Shoot
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Philippine_Sea


For PVE only my thoughts:
The problem is with the power of kinetics. Try to to equip the following BS ONLY fleet:
All Kinetic Artillery + Giga Canon. It has insane range and obliterates anything before it can shoot back. With this setup you can even win fights where the enemy has more fleet power due to abusing that your range is insane. If you pair it with an admiral who is "cautious" (+10% weapon range) and maybe he gets an aggressive trait, you are golden, you migth even wreck fleets which are supposed to be 50% stronger (i.e. 50% more fleet power compared to yours).
Currently the Battleship meta still absolutely dominates the PVE scene. Do not get fooled by people who tell you to mix the fleet. That is a huge lie. The strongest fleet you can get is a pure BS only fleet with the above setup. As the battleships and cruisers melt from your kinetic batteries, the remaining corvettes and destroyers will be no match for your BS fleet anyway.

Kinetics is not OP, not by a longshot. Their weakness is their lackluster armor-piercing. Build some max armor (90% damage reduction) battleships + cruisers and you can easily charge get into their range. For kinetics only their X-slot weapon (giga cannon) has 50% armor-piercing. Kinetic artillery has only 20% AP which means against max-armor ships, they deal only a measly 28% damage. Whereas X and L-slot energy weapons can achieve up to 90% armor piercing.

As for the PvE fleet composition, it really depends on what you're facing. Most AI empires builds a fairly balanced fleet, in which case yes, battleship spam can trash most of their fleet because battleships > cruisers & destroyers. HOWEVER, I have played several battles before where the AI fleet was 80-90% corvettes and I watched one battleship after another go down because they could barely hit them.

Torpedo corvettes in particular EXCEL against long-ranged battleships. And while rare, I have seen AI empires mass these.

Long-range destroyers also do okay against long-ranged battleships, because destroyers have a good enough evasion to dodge many shots, while a fleet of disruptor + plasma destroyers with afterburners can quickly close the range and tear through both shields and armor.
 

Cordane

GW/SC/PD/Flak Wonk
16 Badges
Sep 25, 2013
621
351
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
As much as launching strike craft early might help, it's still not going to make them useful against a fleet prepared for them (aka large numbers of PD/flak). But then, hey, it's pretty realistic too... we're just getting a space version of the Great Marianas Turkey Shoot
As interested as I am in grounding the game in as much realism as possible, making this as one of the only places to actually do so would absolutely suck. Based on anything approaching the ranges we are working with currently (often dozens of light-minutes), kinetic and even beam weapons should have virtually no chance to hit against any aware target. Missiles and strike craft would actually be the only ones with any hope of consistent contact with the enemy, and in THAT situation, yes, significant fleet point defense would be essential and would have to be near perfect in effectiveness to keep the three weapon systems (kinetic, energy, missiles/strike craft) at the same net efficiency.

That's not what we have here, though - kinetics and energy weapons both have near-instantaneous and high-velocity versions, both with no fleet-supporting defenses to mitigate attacks before they impact the defensive systems of individual ships. This, while missiles take FOREVER to reach their targets, assuming of course they can get past the extreme layering of fleet defense PD. On the other hand, we have kinetics, energy, and even missiles able to fire salvo after salvo for months on end without any apparent resupply, while strike craft get one shot to do their thing before they're shot down by the aforementioned PD and their carriers are now impotent for the remainder of all that time.

As I've stated earlier and elsewhere, there are a number of ways to improve the balance of power between missiles/strike craft and point defense, and between the three weapon systems (without getting too far into AI programming):
  1. Change how point defense is designed - I moved this one up from my previous list because I think it's most important to the design of all fleets. Primarily, point defense should be handled like other defense/utility systems: at an individual ship level, similar to the Phalanx systems seen on many US Navy vessels. It should be limited to a percent chance to defeat a missile attack immediately before impact, and it should reduce hull damage to the same net effect as comparable amounts of armor vs. kinetics or shields vs. energy. Fleet point defense should mostly be for dealing with strike craft (it can try to hit missiles, good luck with that) and it should continue to be on the offensive side of the slot equation, just like all other weapons for attacking other ships. I would move Flak Guns (and energy and missile equivalents) into the old fleet PD role - even though they wouldn't necessarily have to be in dedicated slots (may still need to for balance), their low effectiveness (due in part to improvements below for strike craft, but also lower range, accuracy, and damage) would ensure that they are only mitigation and not a hard counter. Again, the net effect should be to reduce strike craft damage by about the same ratio as the other defensive systems. All that assumes that a fleet doesn't overload its defensive/fleet PD profile, but that presents the same opportunities and vulnerabilities as going heavy armor vs. heavy shields, or anti-corvette vs. anti-capital weapons.
  2. Missiles need to behave closer to actual missiles - Missiles need to be considerably faster on average, with a preference for an acceleration model that would have higher tracking at low speeds/ranges (not having to correct for huge velocity vectors) and lower tracking at high speeds/ranges (not BEING ABLE to correct for huge velocity vectors). The lower initial speeds would make missiles less optimal in a close fight (except against corvettes), and a ship computer option for keeping the range out would be essential. Torpedoes can have higher initial velocities and corresponding lower tracking as befits a short-range, more dedicated anti-capital weapon.
  3. Strike craft need some love, too - The biggest issue with strike craft not already covered is the limited lifespan (i.e., once defeated in a battle, hangars are not able to launch until a post-battle regeneration). Unless strike craft are given extreme survivability upgrades (to where they would essentially only go away once the carrier is dealt with), hangars have to be able to launch follow-on squadrons. I would still make strike craft quite survivable to keep the hangars from becoming clown cars, but if you allow a hangar to launch half-squadron replacements once the first half goes down (and then a cooldown/windup), that should be sufficient. These improvements can be balanced with the idea that carriers, because they can launch their squadrons at extreme range, would be better positioned to make an emergency jump or simply survive the furball.
  4. Evasion and tracking is wrong - The smallest and hardest to hit vessels in Stellaris should be missiles and strike craft, not corvettes. The equations for evasion and tracking would have to be completely recalculated to put missiles at the very top, strike craft close behind, corvettes in the middle, and destroyers and the capital ships toward the bottom as usual. Then the weapons would need to be set to go after their preferred prey and bonuses would have to be limited to keep big guns from getting so good as to consistently hit tiny highly-agile targets (especially at full range). If you want to have the bigger ships have a chance at some "evasion" of their own, I'd look at implementing some kind of ECM (and then offer ECCM to help keep that in check).
  5. A well-balanced defender (comparable amounts of all three defensive systems) should suffer about the same amount of net damage from either a kinetic, an energy, or a missile attack of a given size and tech level, when balanced for range, accuracy, and rate of fire. Because missiles ARE affected by ship-PD (even if they're not likely to be affected by fleet-PD) while kinetics and energy are not, they need to be more effective normally against the other two defensive systems (i.e., penetration), so that they net out the same on average. And when those other weapons improve in tech level and start getting additional bonuses versus either of those two defenses, missiles need to see comparable improvements against one or more of the THREE they have to deal with.
  6. Hangars should be an option for more ship sizes and modules - Compared to other weapon slots, hangars are balanced out at about a (M)edium, with only the Battleship "Carrier" core module calculating higher than that. That means that any section that has modules that can support a (L)arge or two (M)edium offensive slots (namely destroyers, but also bow modules on cruisers) should be able to support a (H)angar slot. This would mean that even destroyer-capable empires should have access to strike craft technologies (which is also around the same time that defensive platforms come available that can use strike craft, too), to give them "pocket carriers" whose bombers can actually threaten capital ships, "escort carrier" cruisers with multiple hangars of interceptors that can switch between harassing corvettes and shooting down missiles, or "pure carrier" battleships that have SIX hangars (H2/P2 "Hangar" bow, H3/P3 "Carrier" core, H1/P1 "Flight Deck" stern) for crazy beehive action.
I've spent way too long thinking and writing about this tonight. I would appreciate your comments.
 
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:

macegee

Second Lieutenant
23 Badges
Oct 8, 2012
125
92
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
Thanks everyone, very helpful!

So, are there any good mods that change the balance to make carriers viable?
 

Guilliman88

Planet Modifier Guy
46 Badges
Mar 21, 2015
544
429
  • Magicka
  • Stellaris
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Deluxe edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Prison Architect
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Premium edition
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Season pass
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
I think combat range mechanics is the issue. You should be able to tell your fleet to attack a target from the other end of the solar system with fighters/bombers without moving "in range" with your other weapons.

Right now, even if you give your carriers 120km engagement range (mod) they'll still wait to engage until their conventional weapons are in range. It seems to ignore the near infinite(?) range of fighters and bombers.