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Commander666

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The Challenge:

Adolf Hitler declares, “I can annex the USA earlier than anyone else… and do it with less German Manpower Losses while getting the highest Axis Combat Effectiveness!” Of course he is a crazy madman – but the challenge is open to all.

VeryEarly-01.png




Scoring:
  • Earliest USA annexation date – 60 points maximum, awarded at the rate of 5 points for each full month that winner annexes USA before anyone else. Two players annexing within 29 days of each other is a tie.
  • Least German Manpower losses – 100 points maximum deducted at the rate of 1 point for every 10,000 German MP Losses. If MP losses reach 1,000,000 no points will be awarded.
  • Best Axis Combat Effectiveness (ACE) – 40 points maximum awarded at the rate of 1 point for every 10% of superior combat effectiveness. Example: Player #1 has ACE of 409.1 %. Player #2 has ACE of 300.0% Player #1 is superior by 109.1% which is awarded a total of 10 points.
Player with most points on day they achieve annexation of USA is declared winner.


While our production for this saga remains secret, we cannot hide the fact that there is no time to wait for Anschluss… and we get the Austrian Army into the Axis. Since we lack the IC to build much, we need help. However, it is dreadful that we will never get that IC for Germany.

VeryEarly-02.png







We were serious about “early”. The plan is to get some TPs, make the Atlantic safe, and scuttle over to America to kick Uncle Sam in the butt before he knows what has happened.

VeryEarly-03.png







But then Stalin DOWs us… and threatens to derail our brilliant “early plan”.

VeryEarly-04.png








No worries. The Soviets can’t touch us as Poland and Romania are blocking access. So we pull off a very easy Sea Lion since the Royal Navy was totally surprised… and still at anchor up at Scapa Flow. Naturally, we have a few U-boats and the Kriegsmarine, which is three CA-4 with screens. Sadly, we had to cancel plans to build expensive things like BCs and BBs. They take far too long anyway!

VeryEarly-05.png







Our spear point, three LtARM-1, quickly rolls up the British Isles.
VeryEarly-06.png







We try bombing the RN in Scapa Flow – but as our weak bombers can’t even knock out the 2 AA there, we have little hope of sinking this mammoth target. Maybe - if we take the province - the enemy fleet will relocate to Belfast where there is no AA and we would have much better basing to help the effort?

VeryEarly-07.png








But the canny RN rebases to Gibraltar instead… and now we have a dagger at our side should we try to cross the Atlantic. No worries… we get Yugoslavia into the Axis (along with Italy, Hungary, Bulgaria and Greece by now).

VeryEarly-08.png







We even get the Yugoslavian cavalry to occupied France to help with the anti-partisan efforts there. And after all that time they still break the Pact of Steel. A furious assault from Italy, Hungary, Bulgaria and Greece befalls the traitorous Slavs as every nation tries to claim their territory. And Germany smashes at the Yugoslavian divisions that took our provinces in France. But before we can annex Yugoslavia, Romania DOWs us. What next?

VeryEarly-09.png








Oh, the Soviets DOW Poland. Guess they want a route to Berlin. What should we do? The Poles are supposed to be our next conquest – in time. If we let them join the Axis, we will never get Danzig. We decide to refuse… let our enemies destroy each other. Good plan!

VeryEarly-10.png







But it soon is evident that it is mostly only the Poles getting destroyed. Once we saw the mass of SU divisions steam rolling all in its path, we wisely evacuated out of Konigsberg. We cannot stop the Red Horde alone, and - and when the Poles ask again - we decide to let them into the Axis so we can immediately take military control of Poland – and prevent the looming disaster.

VeryEarly-11.png








Superior Wehrmacht infantry and especially the Luftwaffe succeed in putting together a good counter-attack with the help of the Poles, some Hungarians, all the Bulgarians, and many of the Greeks. The two Fallschirmjäger divisions are key to our success, but we have only two TRAs total since our low IC prevented building more.

VeryEarly-12.png







We close the pocket on about 50 enemy divisions. Probably another 50 have already been over-run. We almost lose one of the airborne divisions, but the other air drops on an adjacent province in the nick of time so the defeated Fallschirmjäger has a retreat path.

VeryEarly-13.png







Finally – with the bulk of the Red army destroyed, the situation stabilizes. Poland regains its country… and a bit extra. Bulgaria is happy too.

VeryEarly-14.png








Meanwhile, the Italians – who annexed South Africa long ago – now amphib Karachi to take away the UK’s crown jewels.

VeryEarly-15.png








And Germany amphibs Leningrad to start a new front that will sweep around Poland’s and Bulgaria’s eastern borders to trap the remaining few Soviet divisions trying to hold a defensive line. BTW, the fastest route to Moscow is not thru the marshes! Don’t trust the AI to pick the best route when a worse route exists nearby. :p

VeryEarly-16.png








Meanwhile, at Gibraltar, our wolfpacks regularly do battle with the RN. We only stick around to fight if we can combine 2-3 wolfpacks in time. In this case, the three wolfpacks were convoy raiding in different Sea Areas, which works fine for sinking merchantmen but not to co-ordinate in time to win this battle.

VeryEarly-17.png







Just before we fulfill the last condition for BP to fire, we liberate Russia – and immediately release the puppet to avoid additional dissent. Being this is v1.09, there is no telling when BP might fire… and we really can’t deal with more than 5% dissent. However, we need to keep our dissent high to benefit more when BP eventually fires. But the overall situation is not so bad… we are still conquering eastwards to get more cores added to the now Axis member of Russia. Stalin…. when we are done you’ll be lucky to have a pot to piss in unless you sue for peace quickly.

VeryEarly-18.png







FINALLY – we get our first spy into the USA. We are stunned by what he reports. 113 divisions? What happened to the “Early Plan” that was supposed to defeat a single lone CAV-1 defending USA’s mainland? And the USN has 6 CVs? This can’t be true!

VeryEarly-19.png



Here’s what the Axis got:
  • Forget Poland’s army – they are 1918 infantry and CAV-1. They are already positioning against Finland, and their cavalry going to Russia’s far border, and the strongest are manning the defensive line against the Czechoslovakians.
  • Forget the Bulgarian army – they are all employed doing partisan control and manning the border with Turkey.
  • Forget the Greek army – they are defending Greece, the Balkans and the Middle East since the Royal Navy still has access into the Mediterranean.
  • Forget the Hungarians – they are all defending against the Czechoslovakians.
  • Forget the Austrians – they too are all defending against the Czechs.

That leaves the Italians, except…
VeryEarly-20.png




Hitler forced Mussolini to make peace with Ethiopia when Germany started WW2. It was the only way to get the Suez Canal open in time to prevent the majority of the Italian army from eliminating due to lack of supply when the Suez Canal got shut. So we need to take care of this now. Sure hope the Ethiopian divisions are only militia.

VeryEarly-21.png








But what to do about this thorn in our face? Is there any hope that when Munich agreement comes in September 1938 that the Czechs will give up the Sudetenland? We would greatly prefer that to having to fight for the provinces that then would give greater Revolt Risk. We already are building 4 lines of GAR, but that wasn’t intended to be diverted to places we would ordinarily get for free. However, can we afford to have a large part of the Wehrmacht tied down for another 5 months to defend the border until we know what happens at Munich? Definitely, we are not free to send an army across the Atlantic.

VeryEarly-22.png







Finally, there is this. We just got Vichy France into the Axis, and could get the 2 Fallschirmjäger to the air base at Casablanca and air assault Gibraltar to force the weakened RN out of port. Then decimate it with our wolfpacks (currently 3 SS-2, 28 SS-3, 9 SS-4 and 3 SSH-8). Mostly they have been attacking convoys with 287 merchantmen and 60 escorts now sunk – but would love to tangle with a huge retreating Royal Navy.

VeryEarly-23.png







While the RN stills appears big on paper, we know it is severely mauled and can’t repair much with the UK only having 2 IC. But is forcing the RN out of Gibraltar even wise? Where would the survivors go except to Newfoundland – exactly where we really don’t want them. Ooh, what to do while we eliminate the dissent we got liberating Russia, and wait for BP to fire.

VeryEarly-24.png





As regards the Spanish Civil War, it’s still raging on. We weren’t even invited to support the Nationalists. Not sure if we want to eliminate whoever will be the winner (so weakened by the epic struggle) or get them into the Axis. However, looks like Portugal wants to join the Axis, so our options are open.

To be continued…

HAPPY NEW YEAR, Forum!
 
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Pang Bingxun

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Anschluss requires for Austria to not be allied with Germany, to not be at war and for Germany to not be at war. Neither condition seems to be fulfilled. Change that if you can.

Munich requires Germany to not be at war.
 

Commander666

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Anschluss requires for Austria to not be allied with Germany, to not be at war and for Germany to not be at war. Neither condition seems to be fulfilled. Change that if you can. Munich requires Germany to not be at war.
You mean cancel the World War Two we started? Ho ho ho! :D

Actually, we just got Bitter Peace so that's one war ended. And we are close to annexing the UK. But we would have to sue for peace with Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the Netherlands. The latter is problematic but we could quickly annex Netherlands also as we already got all the Indonesia VPs. Only Paramaribo remains which we can amphib based on Dakar.

As regards annexing the UK, we already got Guadalcanal VP. Only Gibraltar and Newfoundland VPs remain. Gibraltar we will soon be able to air assault, and NFLD is possible to amphib based on Brest (just).

By juvey, Pang, I think you got a good idea there. We can get that all done before September 29th, 1938 when Munich fires.

So, Anschluss can still happen even though we passed the historical date? The game is currently at May 1938.

That would be great as invading USA will need a far stronger Germany than this filly who rushed out of the barn too early. I like the idea that we can again go to war taking out other countries while we wait for End of Czechoslovakia in March 1939. Meanwhile, the USA is gearing to be a monster super power. Oh well, I'll figure something out. But getting Austria territory into Germany hands and also the Czech Republic seems like a sensible plan.
 
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MJF

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Jesus H Criminy! How did you get Guadalcanal? Yes, USA spamms ground units. IDK how.

Maybe one day a patch will vastly improve the AI, make more realistic restrictions on offensives (logistics, supplies stockpiled, etc) and therefore eliminate the need to massively spam non-historical amounts of AI units. :)

A great experiment tho. I'm subscribed, if not yet ready to imitate.
 

mccarty.geoff

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Nice read. What if you just build transports and an escort fleet loaded with infantry and cavalry? No European WW2 just going for Objective Alpha. If you manually transfer supplies and oil to the beachhead (perhaps New Orleans?) might be able to cut the USA to ribbons before they can contain your invasion and waste your supply. Probably needs some more thought like taking Panama and making several simultaneous landing attempts along the gulf and coasts at DoW H-hour.

On second thought the Allies would be on top of you before you could get the Pacific OBJs which are the real early hardpoints due to the US Navy. You're probably doing it the best way.
 
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Commander666

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Nice read.
Thanks! :)

What if you just build transports and an escort fleet loaded with infantry and cavalry? No European WW2 just going for Objective Alpha.
Assuming "Objective Alpha" is any reachable beach in USA, where would you base your TPs to reach that? With no European war, you have Wilhelmshaven as your most forward naval base, but the closest USA beach is 4,520km away... and unreachable. Germany needs Brest to be able to amphib NFLD (just possible using "unload tactic"). That is the 1st stepping stone to mainland USA.

On second thought the Allies would be on top of you before you could get the Pacific OBJs which are the real early hardpoints due to the US Navy. You're probably doing it the best way.
It needs all the Pacific provinces with Victory Points. That is Pearl Harbor (reachable once West Coast is taken) and Guam (possibly reachable from Wake Island).
 
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Commander666

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Jesus H Criminy! How did you get Guadalcanal?
Alexandria>Aden>Karachi>Bombay>Colombo>Rangoon>Singapore>Soerabajo>Menado>Rabaul>Guadalcanal. But I still have to take Hong Kong... and it's defended.


A great experiment tho. I'm subscribed, if not yet ready to imitate.
Actually, your experiment starting in 1939 might be quicker than mine starting in 1936. We'll see. Please read on. Part 2 "Destroying the Royal Navy" will be publishing in a few hours.
 

Pang Bingxun

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Yes, USA spamms ground units. IDK how.

By having a largely superior ic combined with full free markets. IRL the USA choose the 90 division gamble because the Soviet Union did not crumble. They limited the amount of men in the military severely in favour of having more men in the industry.
 

Commander666

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Please don't forget the women in the industry. :D
 

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Part 2 – Destroying the Royal Navy

HMS Barnham explodes after being torpedoed.
Sink RN-01.jpg









(NOTE: For this story, “sub” will mean a flotilla of subs, and “Wolfpack” will mean a group of subs under one leader – usually six flotilla.)

Before starting our assault on the ridiculous number of Royal Navy ships sheltering at Gibraltar, we do an exploratory bombing of the defenses there because first we will need to win with our Fallschirmjäger. Taking Gibraltar will force the RN into the open sea to face our many U-boats blockading the port. It seems our previous campaign of convoy raiding has worked very well to weaken the army defenders.

SinkRN-02.png







Meanwhile, as regards the war with Russia, we load ourselves up with dissent in anticipation of Bitter Peace firing soon, Surely Stalin will beg for peace before the Polish cavalry takes out his next capital in a few days’ time. Anyway, we liberate Azerbaijan and Georgia, and also change National Identity, Social Policy, and Culture to favor greater IC and some more manpower. Attacking Gibraltar must wait until we get Bitter Peace.

SinkRN-03.png







However, Stalin doesn’t sue for peace when we had hoped, but delays until his best remaining province of Novosibirsk is reached by us. Then he begs for peace. We accept, and lose all that dissent. :D
But the Polish cavalry unit seems stuck deep within enemy territory at Novosibirsk.

SinkRN-04.png







Then a strange thing happens. As we change the Polish divisions – who were expeditioned to our puppet Russia - back to their Polish flag, the provinces where the Polish are in SU territory beyond the original creation of Russia change to Polish territory. Wow! How strange. Firstly, those provinces have Russia cores on them, were captured by troops expeditioned to Russia, and rightly never should have reverted to Soviet territory in the first place since they became part of a puppet's country - even if that occurred after the puppet was created. Finally we figure it out. Seems that Bitter Peace did not include Poland. Poland is still at war with the SU. Anyway, we attempt to move the Polish cavalry unit back to friendly lines and a source of supply.

SinkRN-05.png







But the problems up in Russia are soon forgotten when our airborne assault on Gibraltar succeeds… and the Royal Navy storms out in force. We meet them with 27 SS-3 organized into 4 Wolfpacks of 6 subs each and one of 3. More subs form a second ring, and surface ships form a third ring,

SinkRN-06.png







At dawn our bombers hit in perfect unison (eight German TAC-2, two Vichy NAV-1, and two Italian NAV-1). Their mission parameters are set to bomb until 3%. They will operate only at daytime because – with 95 targets remaining – this will be a long fight.

SinkRN-07.png








We are interrupted by a demand to deal with Yugoslavia. Excuse me, but we annexed Yugoslavia long ago. We click “Declare War” to avoid the dissent if we don’t. How crazy! :p

SinkRN-08.png







Back to sinking the Royal Navy, we send our 3 best destroyer flotillas (some equipped with ASW) in anticipation that the enemy subs should be arriving about now. At the same time, we retreat the most damaged Wolfpack.

SinkRN-09.png







The 3 most damaged subs get dropped out, and the now smaller Wolfpack quickly heads back into the fray. Our bomber force is down to 6 TACs and 4 NAVs. BTW, Grand Admiral Raeder - a Superior Tactician - has over-all command of the submarine battle simply because it is so early that we lack enough Sea Wolf specialists.

SinkRN-10.png







Some enemy ships are discovered to be retreating up the Iberian Coast. Our 2nd cordon of ships and subs goes into action. Meanwhile – at the main battle just off Gibraltar – we now retreat two weakened Wolfpacks while bringing in fresh Italian and Vichy subs from the Mediterranean. But there is an unbelievable problem. We can’t retreat anymore. Instead, the Wolfpacks we want to retreat do a “move to” mission instead. They were almost at Gibraltar. But when the progress arrow was just an hour short of reaching the destination, all the movement got cancelled. So I try again (yellow arrow). However, we have to stop bringing in the fresh subs to avoid over stacking.

SinkRN-11.png







We try several times to get the two now very damaged Wolfpacks out of the battle. We try for different ports. Nothing works. In complete frustration, I even reload the game. It doesn’t help. It is simply impossible to pull a retreat. We must continue the battle with two very damaged Wolf Packs that should have been withdrawn long ago. It becomes a matter of “Damn the over stacking – fire more torpedoes!” as we bring in the fresh Vichy and Italian subs waiting in the Straits of Gibraltar. Fortunately, the fresh subs appear to become a separate battle and nothing is over-stacked? Oh hell, I don’t know. It is a total confusion of explosions, ships sinking, torpedoes shooting everywhere, and bombs dropping from the air. We even notice one of our subs is firing at another one of our subs! :eek:

SinkRN-12.png







Finally, the first main battle – what we now call Round 1 – ends. But the list of losses shown is far from complete because our bombers sank a lot too.

SinkRN-13.png








A more accurate picture is in the record below: Page 1 = 27 ships/flotilla sunk.
SinkRN-14.png








Page 2 = another 27 (Total is 54 ships minus 2 of ours = 52 enemy sunk). But there weren’t any UK bombers in the battle – ever. That must be our bombers that sank our two subs.

SinkRN-15.png








Page 3 adds the last 4 ships. Including the earlier 52, that is 56 enemy ships/flotilla sunk. Whoopee… and there is more coming! :)

SinkRN-16.png





However, back up in Russia, the Polish CAV trying to reach supply is turning all it travels thru into Polish territory. How nice! :D
And thank goodness it looks like it will not end up starving to death trapped inside the Soviet Union although it will suffer before getting back to supply.

SinkRN-17.png








But of course our interest is in the Atlantic where Round 2 has just started with some enemy fleets managing to retreat to the third cordon of Axis navy that was ringing Gibraltar. With all of the enemy’s CVs, CVLs, BBs and BCs sunk, our small Kriegsmarine of CAs is really enjoying this. :cool:

SinkRN-18.png








More victories ensue. Honestly, I couldn’t keep together the many different smaller messages as I needed to keep an uncluttered view thru my periscope! Besides our bombers are still hitting targets – especially those bombers that rebased to Lissabon.

SinkRN-19.png









Fortunately, there exists a better record. Page 1 (of Round 2) adds another 27 enemy sunk. Running total is 56 + 27 = 83

SinkRN-20.png








Page 2 (of Round 2) adds another 5. Running total is 83 + 5 = 88. Yes, we are still “running” because there is a Round 3 coming. :rolleyes:

SinkRN-21.png





I thought it was all over, and had started sending ships back to their ports. But the UK has so many ships that need sinking. :D

SinkRN-22.png







So add another 6. That would make a Grand Total of 88 + 6 = 94 enemy sunk. We lost 2 subs – probably because the retreat function went buggy. I think the spies are probably right about the remaining UK ships. We will probably find them at next naval base we take.

SinkRN-23.png







By the time we get most of our damaged subs back to port, we get some idea of what this victory cost us. It appears this will be the apex of our reinforcement bill. Heck, taking the province of Gibraltar and that repair bill makes the navy and bomber damages look almost insignificant. It was all so much better than had we continued trying to bomb the fleet up at Scapa Flow. BTW, the below shows our current total sub construction. We cancelled some earlier lines. However, we should be building at least 3 more lines of SS-4 but (you guessed it) we suffer “low ic”.

SinkRN-24.png





Incidentally, there is a double irony here. Firstly, having built so many SS-3 because of the way too early war, there aren’t enough Sea Wolf leaders yet for the SS-4 completing now. Secondly, we have one Wolfpack (our strongest in fact) which is nine SS-4, but – rather strangely – they never fired a single torpedo during all 3 rounds as we had them positioned a ring back because nobody wanted them damaged very much. Well, it was quite the Battle of the Atlantic. Should be safe now to send TPs anywhere we might fancy.

So what do we do now? The Abwehr advises there is a chance that we can still enjoy Anschluss. We are supposed to make peace. But we want to annex the UK and still need 3 VPs (Hong Kong, Bermuda, NFLD). The Italians want to crush the Ethiopians. The Poles are still at war with the Soviet Union. Oh my Lord, so many complications. And who is going win the Spanish Civil War? How big is the US Army? What should we build? Questions… questions… … … Decisions…decisions… … …

To be continued, “Part 3 – Decisions”
 
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MJF

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By having a largely superior ic combined with full free markets. IRL the USA choose the 90 division gamble because the Soviet Union did not crumble. They limited the amount of men in the military severely in favour of having more men in the industry.
Historically the USA military was quite small before 1941's Pearl Harbor: https://www.nationalww2museum.org/s...tarters/research-starters-us-military-numbers

And: https://www.politifact.com/texas/st...-army-was-smaller-army-portugal-world-war-ii/

...Woolner, a senior fellow at the Franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt Institute, told us by email his pre-war comparison to Portugal has appeared in many books over decades. "I should also point out here that the small size of the U.S. Army in 1938-39 is sometimes referenced as being ranked 17th in the world, sometimes listed as smaller than Belgium, etc. it depends to a certain extent when the comparison is being made.," Woolner said. "The main point is that in the interwar years, the U.S. Congress and public were very isolationist, and the United States was not the same sort of world leader it is today."
 

MJF

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We try several times to get the two now very damaged Wolfpacks out of the battle. We try for different ports. Nothing works. In complete frustration, I even reload the game. It doesn’t help. It is simply impossible to pull a retreat. We must continue the battle with two very damaged Wolf Packs that should have been withdrawn long ago. It becomes a matter of “Damn the over stacking – fire more torpedoes!” as we bring in the fresh Vichy and Italian subs waiting in the Straits of Gibraltar. Fortunately, the fresh subs appear to become a separate battle and nothing is over-stacked? Oh hell, I don’t know. It is a total confusion of explosions, ships sinking, torpedoes shooting everywhere, and bombs dropping from the air. We even notice one of our subs is firing at another one of our subs! :eek:
You've discovered one of the great flaws of the engine - your inability to get moving friendly units to complete their exiting of a combat zone, when an enemy fleet of any size shows back up. No matter how close to port they are, how far away from the action, their movement is halted, and they are right back in the fray.

Quite an annoyance when trying to reinforce a beachhead during Sealion. Try "Rebase" to a nextdoor base, if you can.
 

mccarty.geoff

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Except for CORE noone has tried modelling realistic manpower levels. Even with 7.6M (5% population) in the armed forces compared to the USSRs 19M (11%) we were economically crippled. We were just the least crippled of the major powers. The Korean and Vietnam drafts are a joke compared to the martial conditions Americans were put under during WW2. Even though they volunteered at 2:1 rate the South-eastern USAs draft records were destroyed after the war. Which leads my conspiracy theory that they were then drafted a 3:1 rate compared with Northerners and Westerners. This country was a socialist hell hole where you either volunteered or were quite actually put in a labor camp.
 

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:)
I'm rusty on AoD mechanics but, I'll give it a go later on. What are the game parameters? Version 1.09 default settings?

No game parameters as I hate rules. I'm playing v1.09 but you can try any version you like. I recommend v1.11 as it has some advantages. In fact, I think there must be many people all recommending I should just play that. :D

I trust the scoring is clear enough. That's it. Any way you can, by hook or crook.... all's fair in love and war, right ? Well, probably modding the game excessively so the US only spams militia instead of infantry might be a bit unfair.
 
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Commander666

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Try "Rebase" to a nextdoor base, if you can.
I did try rebase. It didn't work. BTW, this is the first time I ever encountered this. What do you mean by, "when an enemy fleet of any size shows back up". What do you mean by "back up"? You mean later fleets arriving, such as subs leaving same port will enter battle after the surface ships, and TPs later still?
 

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Well, playing on alternate settings would make a big difference. I'll go with default normal/weakling no alternate switches.

Well, that's up to you. I'm using normal/normal. But I prefer to believe that settings do not matter as much as does player strategy. So, the challenge is really directed at the latter "parameter". I don't think it fair that somebody does modding or uses cheats to gain huge advantages. But doing things like modding camou to go on BBs and other things to deal with game problems is fine. You be the judge of what you think is fair. As far as I'm concerned, it's just a fun game... and the real question is how to go about the challenge - especially what to do politically, alliances or not, etc.
 
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MJF

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I did try rebase. It didn't work. BTW, this is the first time I ever encountered this. What do you mean by, "when an enemy fleet of any size shows back up". What do you mean by "back up"? You mean later fleets arriving, such as subs leaving same port will enter battle after the surface ships, and TPs later still?
I mean this: You have a combat in a sea province. You "Win." You next try to either land your TP's, or exit your damaged ships, etc. You see the arrow showing your movement. Just before your arrow shows the move completed, an enemy fleet of any size shows up, and BAM - NO EXIT! Your ships are right back in the middle of the fray.

Now, if during the fight, you order a retreat or movement of one of your fleets, and if they get out before the combat ends, then you're OK, but if you "win," then do not complete the move before they show up again, it's "Groundhog Day!" Deja-Vu all over again. That's been my experience.

So maybe this wasn't your exact scenerio, but that's been mine. Hence, this post.