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gdj

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is it just confirmation bias, or has the AI become even worse since 2.5.2. when it comes to military decisions?

I just survived a Djihad, after roughly 10 years of fighting, but my liege did not help at all.

What happened? I was a byzantine vassal, holding a despot title, and some counties and duchies in the balkan area. I also had a vassal-duchy, Tripolitania, in North Africa, it was a very profitable holy war.

Then, Civil War breaks out in the ERE (as usual..), and the Sunni Calpih exploits the situation by declaring a djihad for Africa against the ERE i.e. to gety my duchy. My not-so-bright liege finished his civil war rather quickly, and had around 22000 men at his disposal to defend against it, i also had roughly 5500 men of my own. So far so good.

What happened? The byzantine troops did not engage the enemy a single time. He just wandered his army between Anatolia nad Tripolitani back on forth via land, doing absolutely nothing except eating attrition, not even bothering to use ships.

I had to defend myself with some measly 5500 men against perhaps 6-7 times as many muslims. Fortunately they were not well organised, and were swarming around in stacks of 2-3000 each. Even so, no warscore was gained by my battles, because the war was technically declared on my liege, not on me. Also, my vassals did not recognize it as a defensive war, pestering me with the "raised levies" malus (even the duke of tripolitania was upset about my audacity to defend his miserable life and his duchy).

So this horrible war dragged on for 10 years or so, until 100% was reached by ticking warscore, my liege not bothering to make white peace anytime sooner, leaving me with the duchy intact, but with debt, a shattered army, dead generals (including a son) and angry vassals.

Mind, this is just one example of extremely bad AI in terms of war. Anyone else seeing this? I´m pretty sure that the AI was better some versions ago.
 
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furytale

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So basically your liege won his war and kept his troops while one of his big vassals was suffering. How is this bad from his point of view?

Seriously speaking, feudal vassals never participate in liege's war, and aren't expected to. They pay taxes and supply levy, that's all.
 
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gdj

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So basically your liege won his war and kept his troops while one of his big vassals was suffering. How is this bad from his point of view?

Seriously speaking, feudal vassals never participate in liege's war, and aren't expected to. They pay taxes and supply levy, that's all.

Sure, but it was my personal realm that was targeted, i didn´t really have a choice.

Besides, it´s not that the emperor had no losses. He lost perhaps half of his army to attrition, wandering around aimlessly in the Holy Land.
 
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szmik

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It's just the engine fault imho, AI in no PI game is any decent at using fleets to move armies around. And because of enemy sieges and army movement it changes targets and moves back and forth before reaching any, when circumstances change and new movement order comes.
It lacks focus. I'd rather see it move to war target and just sit around clearing enemy armies, let it use ticking warscore.
 
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Aardvark Bellay

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It's just the engine fault imho, AI in no PI game is any decent at using fleets to move armies around. And because of enemy sieges and army movement it changes targets and moves back and forth before reaching any, when circumstances change and new movement order comes.
It lacks focus. I'd rather see it move to war target and just sit around clearing enemy armies, let it use ticking warscore.

Disgreed with your statement as the AI movement used to be better.
Attempts at improving it though seem to have backfired.

I'm currently following a decadence revolt army of another realm in my game how it seems to do the same as many people saw in the baltcis already, how it takes the whole walk around.
Will report it as a bug, if it turns out that they indeed go around the med eastwards from Africa through ERE and Europe to get to Spain again....
 
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furytale

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Sure, but it was my personal realm that was targeted, i didn´t really have a choice.

Besides, it´s not that the emperor had no losses. He lost perhaps half of his army to attrition, wandering around aimlessly in the Holy Land.

Anyway, it was like that from the release of the game.
 
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szmik

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Well, I left CK2 in 2014 because of changes, now I'm back, so it may have escaped me. But I'd be glad if it wasn't engine limitation. So far I didn't see any good naval AI be it HoI, EU or Vicky.
 

FifthMonarchy

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My experience is also that AI has got a bit worse. I've got a game going as Miaphysite Egypt which provides the most recent example. I took the neighbouring duchy of Cyrenaica and handed it to our independent holy order. Sultan of Africa declared a de jure war. He should have been on a hiding to nothing as the holy order alone was twice the size of the sultan's armies, but the AI marched the order troops from Cyrenaica down to his one barony holding in Ethiopia numerous times while the sultan sieged down his targets.
 
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jere8184

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just watch the ai in observer mode its horrible
 
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Tapio

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It's not that they've gotten worse, but that you've never had to rely on the Byzantines... Things got a little better after the straits were implemented.
 

Rubidium

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Yeah, the current AI has issues (including a maddening tendency to ignore the war goal in favor of wandering around).

My "favorite" recent war saw my army smashed by a Byzantine army while helping out an ally in a pointless defensive war over a county in Sicily. Oh well, not my county anyway, right? Except the Byzantines never bothered to siege the wargoal, and so lost on ticking war score, despite having a significant positive score on battles. Every time they started to siege, I just had to march my heavily depleted retinue down to where they could see it, and they would take their army (4 times the size of mine), stop sieging and move towards it. March my army away, and they would forget about it, and eventually (after futzing around for a bit) return to siege. Rinse and repeat, until enough ticking warscore had happened that they made a white peace.
 
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Aries666

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So basically your liege won his war and kept his troops while one of his big vassals was suffering. How is this bad from his point of view?

Seriously speaking, feudal vassals never participate in liege's war, and aren't expected to. They pay taxes and supply levy, that's all.
This is hardly a case of the AI intentionally trying to screw over a powerful vassal and more a case of it being generally incompetent.
 
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raven63

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Army AI is weak in all grand strategy games that I've tried (CK2, EU3-4, and the campaign maps in the total war series). I think that, until AI technology is good enough, developers should dispense with the current model where armies are represented by single units on the map, and naval invasions are carried out by embarking land units into navy units.
 

Talq

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If you see an army behaving strangely, and its strange behaviour lasts through reload, its worth reporting as a bug (along with save game showing behaviour)

(However, descriptions by themselves are usually useless - they will just get prioritised below more verifiable bug reports)
 

I Am A Lion

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Well I'm watching an AI game and the Seljuks have been around for centuries. But after their big conquering spree that mostly just sat around doing nothing sitting on 50k plus troops. Or if they do manage to get their troops to the front line of a war its like a third of their total men. And the Mongol empire is pretty shit. I've played a few games and I always see Mongols with like 70k troops doing absolutely nothing half the time or declaring wars for counties.
 

GCRust

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Having lost the kingship of Abyssinia (to another branch of my dynasty) I've been forced to watch my dreams of establishing the Coptic Pope in Alexandria evaporate in favor of the AI Kings decide to pick fights with the Khazars for control of Alania.
 

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AI pathing does need a rework.
Another example is that the vassal families in a merchant republic like to patrol their trade posts with retinue, regardless of attrition. Also if the AI doesn't have the means of transporting their men across the ocean or sea and can't reach their target, then they shouldn't declare war to begin with.
 

Legionary Guard

Resident Byzantophile
68 Badges
May 28, 2013
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Yeah, the Normans invaded my Muslim Sicily in a holy war, only for some Tunisian duke to offer to help me out. Instead of taking ships over the one sea-zone to Sicily, he instead raises his levies and marches allllllll the way around through Iberia and France to Italy. Not that the Norman AI was any better; I just had to use the one soldier I had left and constantly have him hop around to the various Sicilian counties via ship and the Normans never got anything sieged down.