Venice Reloaded - a 1453 Venice DW 5.2 AAR

[Ricardo Rolo]

Another withdraw of the native bank, I guess

BTW couldn't you occupy Sicily and then release it ASAP ? Or the infamy limit/ house rules did not allowed that ?

 

[diegoami]

So, I'm guessing these 'historical' things are mistakes you made and reloaded from? I don't blame you for that, they're interesting and honest, just curious.

Yes, you are right. I don't like to keep playing when I feel I have made an atrocious mistake and want to go back and try a new idea. That's how I learn the game. This style may not appeal to some, but it's a free country

Another withdraw of the native bank, I guess

BTW couldn't you occupy Sicily and then release it ASAP ? Or the infamy limit/ house rules did not allowed that ?

Right, releasing vassals is not allowed.

 

[diegoami]

The Doge Foscolo's speech (September 1543)



Venice, 7 September 1543

The Doge Giovanni Foscolo's speech before the Senate.

Dear Senators,

first of all, good news from America. Our war with the Aztecs is over and we have acquired three new provinces : Peten, Yucatan and Campeche.

Our spies have warned us that an European war is in the air. In fact, we are afraid that in the next years there could be a war between our allies Bohemia and Aragon. But we wouldn't have to choose a side. In fact, it would be enough be together with an ally in a war to make sure we don't get called to arms against him. For instance, let's assume France started the conquest of Picardie in 1544, dragging Aragon into the war. Bohemia would call us to arms into a defensive war, as they would have to defend the empire. Bohemia would not call us to arms, and if they did we could ignore it without losing the alliance with Bohemia, if we were allied with Aragon in a war.

We could stay out of this war, but what if some other opportunity was there ?
You all know Venice's priority in the last year has been fighting inflation, and doing everything in our power to get more money. But we have neglected building up our army, which is a mistake as now we have provinces spread out on three continents.
What if we could strike at Portugal, and try and get some of their Carribean islands ?

We could do it, but it would be a mistake to underestimate an enemy. If we weren't stationing enough troops in South America, we might end up losing undeveloped colonies there. Like Cayenne.

We don't know how that war could turn out, but there is a possibility that France would occupy that colony and we would end up losing it - forever.

And if we neglected our armies in Europe, we might lose some battles there too.

We could make peace with Portugal and get Antigua. But we would always regret losing Cayenne to the French. That would never go away.

One other mistake we could have made - and I thank my advisor Francesco Labia for warning me about that - is moving our national focus to Suriname and building a COT there, while the province is still uncored. It would be a poor centre of trade, and it would damage our trade all over the world. We could destroy it, but my heart shrinks only thinking about it.

Dear Senators,
Thank you for listening and may San Marco be with you all!

 

[diegoami]

The Doge Foscolo's speech (November 1548)



Venice, 18 November 1548.

The Doge Giovanni Foscolo's speech before the Senate.

Good Morning, everybody. News have come in from the front and all of Sicily is now occupied by Venetian troops. It doesn't really help us, since we couldn't care less about occupying that country.

But that's not the reason why this meeting is being held. I heard some rumours. We have very good sources and we know that the France is about to start the war of reconquest of Picardie very soon. Yes, the war I warned you about five years ago, but which didn't materialize so far. Some of you have been hinting we could call all of our allies to a crusade against the Ottomans to avoid being involved in this war. Now let me tell you this - this is NOT a good idea.

Let's play a game. In the next month, while France and Aragon are at war with Bohemia, we might declare war on the Ottomans and call Bohemia and Aragon to arms.

Now, just looking at the numbers, it looks like we could not possibly lose this war, right ?

First, our allies Bohemia and Aragon would be too busy fighting each other to be of any help.
And then, the Turks have better troops - and better generals.

We would be struggling in the Balkans, even if we were blocking the Dardanelles.

But you know what I am afraid of most ? The Ottomans could outwit us and land a stack in Italy, and our fleet might end up being distracted by that.

I know it might seem incredible to you, but knowing our admirals, they would spread our forces and may even end up defeated in the Dardanelles. Now, that would be a disaster, as the Turks could bear the full weight of their armies on Venice.

... and possible, send another stack to Italy, which we would not be able to challenge.

I am sure we could hold our ground in the Balkans for some time...

I know our admirals would try and blockade the Dardanelles, but the chances would not be good.

It would be too late anyway, as we would be already outnumbered in the Balkans. And our manpower would be drained.

We would have to make peace, as our war score could only get worse. We would have to give up the vassalization of Albania and cede one of their provinces, Zeta.

So, this might be the map of the Balkans after the war.

Nothing we couldn't recover from, but why go to war with the Ottomans in the first place ? Venice doesn't start wars she isn't sure to win. Unless it is a defensive or honourable war, of course.
Now, instead listen to me. There is a much easier way to stay out of this war. We should declare war on the Zapotecs, and call our allies to arms. This way, we will stay out of any European war where our allies could be fighting each other. And we could also get some money and rich provinces in the process.

Thank you for your attention, Senators.
May San Marco be with you all !

 

[Marco Dandolo]

I really smell the odour of venetian diplomacy and tactical political games in these "what if?" scenarios. Great updates!

 

[Range]

Decisions, decisions...what to do what to do? I know...no, that wouldn't work. In my way of thinking, "Good logic always wins out...if not try...try, try...try, try, try again".
Well written my friend.

 

[Seelmeister]

Great update. That was a tough war, but it didn't end in disaster at least. Some wealthy overseas provinces can only help build your resistance to the Ottomans, as if you open up a considerable lead in terms of income you should be able to hold them off with mercenaries and your fleet.

 

[diegoami]

I really smell the odour of venetian diplomacy and tactical political games in these "what if?" scenarios. Great updates!

Thank you. I wonder whether is is true that Venice was the first state to establish permanent diplomatic missions, as claimed in this link.

Decisions, decisions...what to do what to do? I know...no, that wouldn't work. In my way of thinking, "Good logic always wins out...if not try...try, try...try, try, try again".
Well written my friend.

Thank you. I try... and fail.... I used to be able to win all the wars... now I can't...

Great update. That was a tough war, but it didn't end in disaster at least. Some wealthy overseas provinces can only help build your resistance to the Ottomans, as if you open up a considerable lead in terms of income you should be able to hold them off with mercenaries and your fleet.

Thank you. Yeah, I hope so. So many 1 BB cost provinces sitting there.... that I can't get... But after all, Venice shouldn't be able to beat the Ottomans 1v1.

I hope the different timelines are not confusing. I could have gone on playing after the defeat against the Ottomans, but I would have kept asking myself : why did I attack them in the first place ? It would have been different if they had attacked me, in that case I wouldn't have allowed myself a reload.

 

[unmerged(58610)]

Your Ottoman test run proved they could land troops in Italy. You've got Ottomans in North Africa it demonstrated that your buffer really serves no useful purpose. You also need your allies to come to your help and you could do with France and/or Austria to assist you.

I think you are correct in wanting to trade with the Ottomans and get them to trade through your trade league. If you can get all of their trade through CoTs Venice controls you'll get the drop on them in terms of revenue and eventually tech.

 

[Marco Dandolo]

Thank you. I wonder whether is is true that Venice was the first state to establish permanent diplomatic missions, as claimed in this link.

It's a bit disputed. It matters from which point of view you argue in this point. If we take the Bailò in Constantinople as example, Venice had clearly the first permament diplomatic mission at the Byzantine court; but the Bailò was also the "mayor" of the venetian quarter. I think that's the diplomatic mission, which is mentioned. Traditionally, the first permanent diplomatic missions evolved in the first half of the 15th century in Italy, and is attributed to Milan, Florence and Venice; however, some historians say, that this system was based on the venetian system and was established, when Venice had to consult her ally Florence in their war against Milan. Because of that, they didn't remove their diplomat in Florence.

 

[diegoami]

It's a bit disputed. It matters from which point of view you argue in this point. If we take the Bailò in Constantinople as example, Venice had clearly the first permament diplomatic mission at the Byzantine court; but the Bailò was also the "mayor" of the venetian quarter. I think that's the diplomatic mission, which is mentioned. Traditionally, the first permanent diplomatic missions evolved in the first half of the 15th century in Italy, and is attributed to Milan, Florence and Venice; however, some historians say, that this system was based on the venetian system and was established, when Venice had to consult her ally Florence in their war against Milan. Because of that, they didn't remove their diplomat in Florence.

Hrmm.. That's interesting information. And I hoped there were Venice's ambassadors in London and Paris...

 

[diegoami]

1553-1555 : Rich colonies in America and an angry Emperor


Let me introduce you to the Doge Giuseppe Foscolo, reigning over Venice since 1541. He has ADM 9 / DIP 6 / MIL 3. It is not easy to find a ADM 9 doge, which could trigger the -1 inflation event. That's why we forgive him for being a poor general.

There is something I forgot to tell - we have a core on Serbia, since 1535. That's another reason we would want to go to war with the Ottomans. The other unclaimed core is Chur, Switzerland.

France and Bohemia are at war since 1549. Venice had managed to stay out of it because that would have meant war with Aragon as well, allied both with France and Venice. in 1549, Venice and Aragon were allied in a war against the Zapotecs, and therefore could not declare war on each other.

Venice had chosen, therefore to stay out of the war between Bohemia & Burgundy and France & Aragon. But that was not without consequences. To better illustrate this, let's have a look at this letter we found in Venice's state archives.




Prague, 20 October 1552.

Illustrious Doge of Venice Giuseppe Foscolo,

I don't need to inform you of the bloody war We as Emperor are fighting against France and Aragon. We are defending Burgundy against French aggression, which is our duty as Emperor. We are aware that the Republic of Venice has a treaty of alliance both with Us and with the Kingdom of Aragon. Therefore, we fully respect your decision not to join us in this war.

This war turned out to be very difficult and we could not prevent France from invading Burgundy. We lost several battles in France,
and sensing our weakness Lithuania and Poland declared war on us. I request immediate intervention in this second war.

We also remind the most Illustrious Doge that it would have been possible to intervene against France too, using the "Alliance" casus belli, without having to fight Aragon. We don't expect Venice to do that now, as the war is already decided and Bohemia's mainland is not threathened. But in case of another conflict with France, we might reconsider our alliance with Venice if she won't intervene.

King Boczek I von Hasburg




And then, in January 1553, Venice was at war with Poland and Lithuania. Troops were sent to Bohemia to repel the invasion.

By February 1554, Bohemia had made a separate pace with Lithuania, and we would as well do that soon.

Meanwhile, Bohemia had given up defending Burgundy, which was helpless against France.

Our spies in Thrace sent us a military map, and this way we learnt about the Jihad the Turks were fighting against England and Sweden.

In January 1555, Venice had made peace with Lithuania. But not before vassalizing Croatia. So we got something out of this war too.
Diplomatic map.

The war between France & Aragon and Bohemia & Burgundy was also over. France had acquired at least three provinces : Picardie, Cambray and Luxembourg. Meanwhile, Münster had annexed Westfalen and was still fighting against its allies.

Therefore, this was a map of Europe in January 1555.

Thanks to new naval technologies, Venice had managed to colonize more distant provinces. The Doge was pleased very rich lands in Southern America could be claimed. Patos and Banda Oriental had been colonized, and colonists would soon reach Rio de la Plata as well.

New colonies were founded in Curacao and Bahamas as well.

On a larger scale, it is worth noticing that Münster was colonizing Africa as well and had conquered the Oyos. Sweden has conquered Bonnie and the coastal provinces of Mali. Muscowy has been expanding to the East, unnoticed by us.

... while it is the usual suspects that are colonizing America.

Even without the help of events, we were coming closer to our goal of 6.0 inflation, which we needed to fulfill our mission.
Trade was still our highest source of income, but of course it was the money we had got from the natives which had allowed us to cut on minting.

But something else was in the mind of Doge. Surprising information came from our spies. It seemed that the Ottomans had lost of all their ships while fighting a Jihad against England.

As soon as the Council of ten learnt about that, an extraordinary meeting of the Senate was called. In preparation for a possible war, Venetian troops were positioned at the border with the Ottoman Empire.

 

[Marco Dandolo]

Hrmm.. That's interesting information. And I hoped there were Venice's ambassadors in London and Paris...

With the beginning of the Italian wars at the end of the 15th century, that was the case. Around 1500, Venice had a permanent ambassador at the court of Louis. A key figure was this guy.

By the way, can we have a map of the religions in Europe?

 

[diegoami]

With the beginning of the Italian wars at the end of the 15th century, that was the case. Around 1500, Venice had a permanent ambassador at the court of Louis. A key figure was this guy.

By the way, can we have a map of the religions in Europe?

Wow, I didn't know about this guy. That's a nice name you have there then

Here are the religious and trade map of Europe at the beginning of 1553, and a world map.

Spoiler

 

[Ricardo Rolo]

Well, not only the Ottoman navy has gone through the drain, but also the army we can see is nothing that Venice can't beat.... and besides, it looks that the English are doing what they want out of the Ottoman Morocco. RL Venice never had such a good chance versus them ... but it is enough ? How is the WE of the Ottomans, btw ?

And then there is France, that is everywhere ... from North America to Cape Town . Really, a textbook Big Blue Blob :/

 

[diegoami]

Well, not only the Ottoman navy has gone through the drain, but also the army we can see is nothing that Venice can't beat.... and besides, it looks that the English are doing what they want out of the Ottoman Morocco. RL Venice never had such a good chance versus them ... but it is enough ? How is the WE of the Ottomans, btw ?

And then there is France, that is everywhere ... from North America to Cape Town . Really, a textbook Big Blue Blob :/

Yeah, I'm confident Venice will be able to beat the Ottomans, if we can blockade the Bosphorus. WE of the Ottomans is negligible, they are lucky...
And France... yes.. that's annoying!

 

[diegoami]

The first French-Bohemian war

This is a chronicle of the first French-Bohemian war, written by the King Louis XII de Valois, who was an excellent general during this war.


In 1549, France declared war on their old enemy Burgundy to conquer Picardie. This war turned soon into an European-wide war, pitching France and Aragon on one side against Bohemia, Burgundy, Switzerland and Portugal at the other side.

While numerically we were at a light disadvantage, our excellent generals more than made up for that.

Spoiler

In the year 1549 Bohemian and Burgundian troops went on the offensive and even reached the capital of France, but we managed to push them back eventually.

In the first half of 1550, the Emperor resumed the offensive and we couldn't prevent their troops from laying a siege to the capital. It had been a black year for the French army, who had gone from defeat to defeat.

The eyes of Europe were pointed towards Nemours, where a major battle was being fought.

But in the second half of the year 1550, Portugal surrendered and became a vassal of France. Soon it would be fighting against their former allies. But most important of all, France could concentrate all of its efforts on one front now.

In this second half of the year the situation had improved also on the main front and we could win several major battles. We were hoping that in the year 1551 we could kick the enemies out of France. We had also more manpower than the opposition.

In fact, by October 1551, the siege on Paris had been lifted, and we could take the war to Burgundy.

Several other battles were fought until March 1552, and a French victory was becoming more likely, as the enemies were running out of men. The warscore had moved clearly to the right.

Victory was closer in October 1552. The only problem left was getting rid of that big Burgundian stack.

That stack was challenged several times until Febrary 1553.

In September 1553, there was virtually no resistence left in the enemy coalition, and we could go for the jugular.

The war continued until October 1554. We were about to bring the war to Switzerland and Bohemia. Munster had declared war on Burgundy and Poland was at war with Bohemia.

But we didn't want to push our luck too much. Therefore we made peace with our enemies and acquired the province of Picardie, Cambray and Luxembourg.

In November 1554, France had the second biggest army. France hadn't been that powerful since Charlemagne.

 

[diegoami]

We talked about the armies - but what about the fleets ? In January 1555, England and Venice had the biggest fleets.

But while Venice had build her ships, England had stolen most of them. That's where many of the Turkish ships had ended up.

Here is a list of English ships in January 1555.

Spoiler

 

[diegoami]

As I won't be able to update this week, as I will be out of town, it is a good time to remind about the AARLANDER.

​

Have a nice week-end everybody.

 

[diegoami]

1555-1559 : War with the Ottoman Empire and Austria


In January 1555, we declare war on the Ottomans. Immediately after that, Austria declares war on us, bringing their allies into the war. We expected it to be an easy war, we end up being in a very dangerous situation.

The sum of the troops of our enemies is bigger than the total of our troops, but most Ottoman troops will be stuck in Asia. And the Ottomans are still at war with England.

The situation is difficult, but not dramatic. Infact we stand our ground both in the Balkans and on the Austrian front.

After losing the war with France, Bohemia has not much of an army, but there is not going to be a serious breakthrough on their front. They are just huge.

We decide to concentrate on beating the Austrians and give up the Balkans for a while. In March 1556, in fact, the Ottomans have advanced, while we make a fighting retreat there.

The war, of course, would look very different if the Bosphorus wasn't blockaded and the Ottomans could take their stack from Bursa to Europe.

Concentrating on fighting the Austrians, though, turns out to be a winning strategy.

Meanwhile, Bohemia is asserting itself at home. And Aragon is fighting the Ottomans in Navarra.

Prussia has been peaced out, which makes life for Bohemia easier.

In January 1557, the war with Austria is already over. We made them cede Lienz, which we will sell to Styria, as we don't have a core on it. Austria has to be punished somehow.

Which of course allows to redirect all of our troops to the Balkans. We outnumber the Turks and we invade them.

We have trouble defeating their stacks, but the invasion goes smoothly. In September 1557, France invades too.

January 1558.

In August 1559, the war is over. The Turks cede Serbia, on which we have a core, and several ducats. A limited victory, but invading the Turkish mainland is out of the question.

Therefore, this is the diplomatic map of Venice in August 1559.

What else ? Well, we actually fulfilled our mission, without the help of further events. Now our inflation is at 4.9 %, we have a booming economy and an easy mission. We are back to the "fulfilling missions" business.

In the New World, we have expanded our presence in South America. La Plata will be Venetian.

We are the unchallenged richest nation in the world. Which is even better than it looks, considering our low inflation compared to other countries. But have taken two loans.

And we are trading like there is no tomorrow.