Venice in HRE [1.8.1] ??

[Wildcat_PL]

Is it possible? If so - how?

I know I have to be small enough to get considered. Is it based on BT? If so whats the maximum I can have? Does it take vassals into consideration?
AFAIR Austria can't be my rival from the game start. Is it randomly generated or do I have to mod history files? Or will they be too big when I loose those provinces and will stop being my rivals?

 

[RobRoy3]

Is it possible? If so - how?

I know I have to be small enough to get considered. Is it based on BT? If so whats the maximum I can have? Does it take vassals into consideration?
AFAIR Austria can't be my rival from the game start. Is it randomly generated or do I have to mod history files? Or will they be too big when I loose those provinces and will stop being my rivals?

It IS possible in 1.8.1. Advisable or desirable? I'm not so sure.

I'm not possitive if it's based on base tax or number of province or both. I'm pretty sure vassals aren't counted (or count for very little). To do it, I had to spin off Crete and Croatia, and sell most of the Terraferma to do it (was only able to keep Treviso). And, as you surmised, you do need to have near 200 relations with Austria. So if it starts off rivaling you, you may want to consider a fresh start, if joining the HRE is your goal. I'm just not sure if/when it'll drop the rivalry, since even as a two province minor, Venice can be formidable, financially, so it may stay on Austria's list for quite awhile.

The question is: Is it really worth it to lose six or so good provinces, just to be part of the HRE? Even if it is temporary

If you answer is "yes", since you're going to be spending a lot of time/energy kissing up to Austria, and probably allying with them, you may want to consider divesting Brescia and Verona such that they don't come back to you. Maybe you can keep Austria as a long term ally?

 

[kente]

It IS possible in 1.8.1. Advisable or desirable? I'm not so sure.

I'm not possitive if it's based on base tax or number of province or both. I'm pretty sure vassals aren't counted (or count for very little). To do it, I had to spin off Crete and Croatia, and sell most of the Terraferma to do it (was only able to keep Treviso). And, as you surmised, you do need to have near 200 relations with Austria. So if it starts off rivaling you, you may want to consider a fresh start, if joining the HRE is your goal. I'm just not sure if/when it'll drop the rivalry, since even as a two province minor, Venice can be formidable, financially, so it may stay on Austria's list for quite awhile.

The question is: Is it really worth it to lose six or so good provinces, just to be part of the HRE? Even if it is temporary

If you answer is "yes", since you're going to be spending a lot of time/energy kissing up to Austria, and probably allying with them, you may want to consider divesting Brescia and Verona such that they don't come back to you. Maybe you can keep Austria as a long term ally?

you can feed your italian lands to some vassal (naxos or corfu, or new one as Crete or Croatia), join the HRE and than annex them. Anyway i'm not sure how much vassals count in 1.8, you should try yourself.

And anyway not in every start Austria rivals Venice, in many games i have seen Venice and Austria ally together, specially if both have Hungary as rivals

 

[Rey]

you can feed your italian lands to some vassal (naxos or corfu, or new one as Crete or Croatia), join the HRE and than annex them. Anyway i'm not sure how much vassals count in 1.8, you should try yourself.

Though you can't sell the Italian provinces, they are in HRE and give a -1000 modifier.

 

[Less]

Vassals count at whatever % your vassals are currently being taxed. e.g. 20 BT of vassals @ 45% taxation = same as 9 BT of your own provinces. I think you have to be somewhere around 15-20 BT or less to join (unless you are a german culture, in which case you can be a bit more). You also need high relations with the HRE, which is probably not happening with Austria.

If you want to play a merchant republic in the HRE, I'd recommend Genoa.

 

[RobRoy3]

Though you can't sell the Italian provinces, they are in HRE and give a -1000 modifier.

Vassals will currently buy anything cored, including HRE provinces.

Vassals count at whatever % your vassals are currently being taxed. e.g. 20 BT of vassals @ 45% taxation = same as 9 BT of your own provinces. I think you have to be somewhere around 16 BT or less to join (unless you are a german culture, in which case you can be a bit more). You also need high relations with the HRE, which is probably not happening with Austria.

As I said, you can do it with Treviso, which means at least 19 base tax. Since that included four or so newly fattened vassals, I'm not convinced they count for much, if anything.

But, yes, you need to get super-high relations with Austria, which is doable, even desirable, if they haven't rivaled you, probably impossible if they have.

 

[Rey]

Vassals will currently buy anything cored, including HRE provinces.

You right, there's no HRE modifier when selling cores to vassals.

 

[Santoes]

You have to have a Bt of 27 or lower I do believe. Also vassals will add to the BT so you need to make them marches. Basically you'd let croatia go, feed, and make everyone a march. You'd probably be left with three territories.

 

[Wildcat_PL]

Vassals will currently buy anything cored, including HRE provinces.

I wonder is this WAD. I can confirm I can join Empire quite easily as Venice. And the total cost doesn't look high to me. I can easily grow inside Empire without fighting the Emperor now. I think it's worth it.

With Treviso and Venice I needed 192 relations with Austria - that s acommon rival, relations +100, allies and fighting in a war together. Easily doable and a strong ally to have. I can create a coast connection to the Turks and bring Austria to the war.

 

[RobRoy3]

I wonder is this WAD.

I assume it is. Appears to be a recent, conscious change, rather than an "oops". I doubt Venice joining the HRE falls into the category of an exploit in need of immediate nerfing when there are dozens of more attractive minors already in the HRE that don't require a significant cost to join (including two Merchant Republics).

And HRE expansion already has its own set of checks and balances. If you're planning to grow modestly, you should be ok, particularly if you stay allied with the Emperor and one or two other large allies. But the AE costs of intra-HRE expansion are already exaggeratedly high. So rapid expansion is problematic.

And Venice already has two special checks vis-a-vis its relationship with Austria, making this strategy problematic: you already observed that you need the near-200 relations, which is unlikely if they start as a rival; and Austria will eventually get the mission to take chunks of northern Italy, if you hold Verona and Brescia, screwing everything up unless you've already planned to cede those territories to them in perpetuity. So, it can be a fun alternative for Venice, but in most VEN games, Austria isn't going to be your friend.

If there's an "exploit", it's the standard minor strategy of allying with Austria and/or France and having them do your fighting for you. Not sure why there'd be a problem allowing Venice to join that particularly club. Hansa can sometimes manage BOTH Austria AND France as allies, at least for a little while. Hansa is generally an easier game, though Venice's geo-political situation can make it more entertaining, depending on your preferences.