Venice hints (strategy, ideas, etc.)?

[spoffy]

Hello again folks, taking a break from my France game to try something new. I tried playing Venice once before and got crushed by a combo of Austria, Hungary and the Ottomans, but now I'm ready to give it another shot. What's a good starting strategy, what idea would you pick first, etc.?

I figure my final idea layout (in no particular order) will be Trade, Naval, Plutocracy, Quality, Offensive, Innovative, Administrative and Economic. My reasoning is:

Trade + Naval + Quality + Plutocracy = big, powerful navy and lots of merchants to dominate trade in the Mediterranean
Plutocracy + Administrative + Innovative = loads of cheap mercenaries
Innovative + Offensive = high army tradition for strong generals
Innovative + Plutocracy = cheap tech, more points for ideas
Economic + Administrative + Plutocracy = more money to pay for mercs, ships, and cheap buildings

Not sure which one I'd pick first though . . .

 

[sigeena]

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...ll-does-Crimea-have-a-navy-)&highlight=venice

Some elements have been discussed above.

As for NIs, I much prefer to take Naval ahead of Trade. Simply because the biggest threats to growth and security are Mamluks and Ottomans. Ottos will always take Naval as their NI and with their uber monarch, they'll race ahead to Naval 3, which gives +50% Naval Forcelimit.

And usually I spread my NIs around so that I'm not too weak in tech progress. So my 2nd NI is Plutocracy. 3rd is usually Espionage, just for kicks and giggles

Alliance wise, I have a hard time getting Austria to be friendly, so my early game allies tend to be Poland (which they'll usually lead Lithuania in PU). Poland will substantially hedge against Hungary and Austria. I'll also remove the guarantee on Knights, it's a drain on the Dip Relations. So my 2nd ally is usually Savoy, just to hedge against Milan and Tuscany.

Around mid game, if France has gobbled up their vassals, I'll add France into my alliance. This is provided Austria is still unfriendly, which is usually in my Venetian game. A French-Poland alliance is all you need to hedge against Austria and Hungary. And Poland hedges against Ottomans as well.

Of the 2 vassals, it's better to annex Corfu first. They are at the entrance to the Adriatic, so building it to a Naval Base or a March will provide alot of strategic influence in the long run.

I usually start my first 20 years taking Ragusa and parts of northern italy, like Ferrara. Thereafter, if opportunity allows, strike at Ottomans or Mameluks. I will only declare war on Ottomans if they are already at war with Mameluks, and their army is deployed in Asia minor. With the fall of Byzantine, there'll be an event that gives claims to southern greece. Usually I try to be even with Ottomans in my peace settlement, I'll take Greece, but not Albania. And usually make them release some of the minor nations in Asia Minor. This way, they will always have about equal numbers on either side of the straits.

Any minor nation that you helped release will be a merchant republic, which gives Venice a Trade Dispute CB. Use that to grab 50% TP.

War goals against Mamlukes should be Aleppo, Alexandria and Rashid. These 3 provinces provide alot of TP to Alexandria Trade node.

Once you clear the entire Naval NI, you can usually get Thalassocracy confirmed. If not, war someone and get the 50% TP transfer. It's a great peace deal, since it doesn't give AE, or cost Dip points.

 

[SuperSFX]

I've played quite a bit of Venice and tried quite a few strategies. Here's what I would recommend for the start of the game.

1. Ally France. This is going to prevent anyone else from declaring war on you (like power-hungry Austria next door or Milan looking to take back Brescia).
2. Work on annexing one of your vassals (both to free up a diplo relation and to provide a foothold next to the Ottomans)
3. Build lots of galleys early.
4. Ally Poland. If you can get Austria to ally you, then do that too, but Poland is basically a necessity.
5. Vassalize Serbia and Bosnia (don't worry about Ragusa, you don't want to end up at war with Hungary at the beginning of the game).
6. Wait for the Ottomans to take Constantinople. Take Byzantines as a vassal (even if you end up taking a stability hit).
7. Position all of your ships between Constantinople and Izmit.
8. Wait for the Ottomans to move their troops out of Greece. Then DoW with the CB to reclaim core Albania. Siege what you can, but make sure you have a strong enough army to stand up to any surprise Crimean forces (which is where Poland/Lithuania comes in handy). You should be able to return a few of the Byzantine cores.

The earlier you can take down the Ottomans the better. Once they take Naval ideas (which is almost always their first idea group) they will dominate the seas so it is important to strike before they get the chance. However, if you also take naval ideas and are willing to give up military/diplo points for a commander then you can stand up to them.

As for ideas, here's what I recommend: Everybody seems to love plutocratic ideas and I'm really not sure why. I've taken it before and I was underwhelmed. For military ideas, I think defensive and offensive are generally better. I'd recommend starting with a diplo idea. Trade, diplomacy or Naval are all valid ideas (although I prefer diplomacy just because I'm conquest happy). After that, you can either take a military idea (defensive is pretty much my go-to military idea) or an admin idea. If you decide to take an admin idea, religious is your best bet, especially when trying to convert those higher base-tax provinces from the Ottomans.

Here's what I would definitely avoid: Attacking anyone in the HRE, attacking Naples prior to them splitting off with Aragon or attacking Hungary unless you want to get cores for Croatia (you can release them as a vassal and get some easy cores from Hungary that way).

 

[sigeena]

I think France is vulnerable in the early game with Burgundy around. So I would hesitate to ally with France so early. Poland leading PU with Lithuania probably can bring more men in and they are closer to Hungary and Austria as well. So I really prefer Poland as 1st ally to France.

 

[Leninade]

Attack southern Italy before northern. Screw the missions, the emperor is scary. I also like to go reformed. With the way converting works, even if you lose to Catholic rebels during the reformation you get to convert again at your next election- horrifying event free. Then you get to conquer the pope with no hassles and an extra missionary. Plus you finally get to convert the Greeks without taking religious ideas. I would also hold off on trade until late in the game. As a merchant republic you'll get plenty of +mercantilism events and other shenanigans that make you unstoppable in the Med. Galleys are also a must, before you get the bonus ships from naval and the Venetian ambitions you're like a sitting duck for the Ottomans.

 

[Turboflex]

At first I would ally France (and anyone else around who can help you with Austria really) and then take cities in Northern Italy. France will help beat down Austria when they intervene. You can take Ragusa & Croatia (they start as accepte culture) too if you are ambitious. Take the Islands too. You need to build up your power base first to later take on Ottomans. You can limit yourself to Venezia-lombard ones, or go after other Venezia ones in Adriatic, or even Genoa lombard the if you want to build up your manpower base. Just don't get to obsessed with Italy, fighting endlessly there is not the point.

Just ignore Ottos for now, they should be busy fighting minors in anatolia, in balkans and Mamlukes. You don't want to fight Ottos until for sure your navy can win so you might want to wait until you have your national tradition of + 50% galley combat. You can start with trade to get the ducats flowing, or a military idea to help fight austria/hungary in Italy and croatia (defensive maybe, hang in there until your allies arrive to help. If you are really being swarmed withdraw your armies to venezia island and guard it with ships to preserve it). Save Navy for 3rd, right for when you are finishing up in Italy, and ready to max out national idea. Beating Ottomans is fairly straightforward then, position your fleet to cut bosphorus, and isolate their European assets, mass blockade them when you do nail their fleet.

After you are done conquering Greece (maybe take Serbia as vassal and give them northern balkan provinces), the next obvious project is Egypt. Corner the Alexandria node and get your red sea connection. Then onto Aden, India & beyond. Take provinces in this areas (especially the ones with luxury goods like spice, build up production & manufacturies there too) and build trade buildings to increase market control. You should not even need light ships in most nodes, you'll be above 70% control with buildings, national trade advantages, plus rival/embargoing anyone who encroaches significantly (or trade war them). You will be directing absurd amounts of gold to Venezia for buildings and also for mercs incase you get ensnared into a major ground war (you wanna keep an eye on your allies, you aren't a heavyweight so you want so backup, but also nobody who is gonna do something stupid).

So to sum up ideas I would recommend:
1) defensive, 2) trade, 3) navy, after that Plutocracy/Religious/Administrative are all useful for your global trade empire expansion.

 

[DominusNovus]

As for ideas, here's what I recommend: Everybody seems to love plutocratic ideas and I'm really not sure why. I've taken it before and I was underwhelmed.

My favorite thing about plutocratic ideas is that they give you bonuses typically associated with ADM and DIP points, and since I rarely spend MIL points on anything but tech and ideas (and buildings when I've got enough to spare), you get some good grab-bag options while you hurry up with ADM and DIP tech.

 

[spoffy]

Lots of different approaches here, this is cool.

I dropped the guarantee on the Knights and allied both France and Poland, that's kept Austria off my back so far. This game has gone weird, though. Savoy somehow took emperor from Austria early on and got Burgundy in the inheritance, then Austria took it back after France crushed them. Castille got the Iberian Wedding around 1470 but lost it when their monarch died. That broke the PU between Aragon and Naples, so I started conquering Naples and took Sicily, Sardinia and Corsica from Aragon as well. So I'm doing well on that front.

Only problem is I haven't seen an opportunity to hit the Ottomans yet. Then again, they haven't been doing much . . . Candar and Karaman are still alive, and Karaman took the other two minors, so they haven't expanded at all in Anatolia. They took Constantinople but Byzantium is still alive in Morea and the Knights. I should probably vassal them next from what I read here though.

 

[Turboflex]

Careful with Morea, you really don't want to mess with the Ottoman sphere territory until you have the navy + national ideas to ensure your galley fleet can beat their navy so you can employ the piecemeal carving strategy. Also remember they have a significant infantry tech advantage until mil tech 9-10. You will get clobbered if you can't cut off and blockade them, massive armies will rush up to Italy, probably wreck Poland too, and it's always a toss up on how much help France will be (them being often engaged with other heavyweight opponents).

 

[InnocentIII]

What would you need to spin off as a vassal to join the HRE, and is that even possible? I've been meaning to go back to Venice, but my early experience was that Austria would be very willing to ally me early, then dump me. So I would not build a strategy around being pals with Austria unless you were in the HRE. Even then, Austria usually overextends and goes severe weak periods, but for fifty, seventy five years it can be a good pal, especially if you can eat up HRE states with the lower AE in 1.4.

 

[delpiero1234]

As Venice I recommended the following NI in this particular order:
Plutocracy (better morale, tech cost reduction, tolerance of heathens (which you will have many at some point)
Administrative (Adaptabilty is probably the single most powerful idea in EU IV because of its coring time and coring cost reduction, therefore saving you hundreds and thousands of adm points in your game. Allows powerful decisions to be enacted).
Naval (vital for trade, allows Thalassocracy)

Then it depends if you want (you should) to conquer India or not. If you do pick Expansion next.

Strategy wise you should try to conquer Egypt as soon as you can. This allows you faster access to India and to its wealth.
A good opening move is to built many galleys (way over your force limit), take the mission conquer Cyprus and blockade The Mameluke with your fleet, don't send any army to Egypt though as you will be heavily outnumbered. Take Cyprus and move on. Conquer Urbino. Form Alliance with France.

 

[AJ2009]

Hello again folks, taking a break from my France game to try something new. I tried playing Venice once before and got crushed by a combo of Austria, Hungary and the Ottomans, but now I'm ready to give it another shot. What's a good starting strategy, what idea would you pick first, etc.?

I figure my final idea layout (in no particular order) will be Trade, Naval, Plutocracy, Quality, Offensive, Innovative, Administrative and Economic. My reasoning is:

Trade + Naval + Quality + Plutocracy = big, powerful navy and lots of merchants to dominate trade in the Mediterranean
Plutocracy + Administrative + Innovative = loads of cheap mercenaries
Innovative + Offensive = high army tradition for strong generals
Innovative + Plutocracy = cheap tech, more points for ideas
Economic + Administrative + Plutocracy = more money to pay for mercs, ships, and cheap buildings

Not sure which one I'd pick first though . . .

I usually make sure I have/do

1.big navy
2.Austria as an Ally
3.France as an Ally in case Austria decides to get aggressive
4.Naval ideas for the force limits/combat bonus
5.Attack the Ottomans when they are weak

You can also decide to be the hegemonic power in Italy as well as keeping your trade empire in the Med stable. Its also a good idea to fight lots of allied wars to keep your prestige high to become a respected member of the International community so that the big powers will also fight your wars against the Ottomans.

 

[spoffy]

What would you need to spin off as a vassal to join the HRE, and is that even possible? I've been meaning to go back to Venice, but my early experience was that Austria would be very willing to ally me early, then dump me. So I would not build a strategy around being pals with Austria unless you were in the HRE. Even then, Austria usually overextends and goes severe weak periods, but for fifty, seventy five years it can be a good pal, especially if you can eat up HRE states with the lower AE in 1.4.

I can actually answer this one, I saved partway into the game and went back to start again to see if this was possible. If you release Crete and Croatia as vassals, then sell Istria to Croatia, the option appears to add Venice to the empire at 194 relations with Austria . . . pretty tough to get as a republic without a RM. If you sell Brescia back to Milan, it drops to 194 straight away, then releasing Crete drops it to 184 and Croatia drops it to 174. Selling Istria to Croatia gives you a final total of 162, which is doable with relations + alliance + a gift.

Giving away Brescia is a bit tough for me to swallow though.

 

[AnguyTheArcher]

I just started as Venice and was able to beat Ottomans early in 50ties. I didn't expand into the Italy because Austria allied France too and France refuses to take my side against Austria. I vassalized Bosnia and Serbia, while Ottomans declared war against Byz, but I cockblocked them and took Byzantine provinces in Peloponesos during trade war and they were able to take just Constantinople. That means Byzantium disappeared, but I immediately recreated it by releasing all Byzantine provinces. I knew Ottomans will be coming after them again (but they had 5 year truce with Byz haha) so I made a lot of alliances - Poland/Lith, France (who were worthless in next war), and Aragon. I had 8/4 dip relations at this point. But they were refusing to join an offensive war against Ottomans so I was forced to fight defensive war when they attacked released Byzantium - which meant fighting full Ottoman strength in Balkans. I barely survived, mostly by fighting defensively in mountains ,but at the end I took Albania and forced them to give all byzantine cores to my Byzantine vassal. That crippled them in Europe. I now plan to release Bulgaria in another war, but I can't find casus belli against them without neighbouring territory. So dealing with them early is possible, you just need a lot of allies,mercs and luck.

I made a mistake by taking Diplomacy as first idea, though (I thought I'd need lot of allies and vassals).

 

[ceteris.paribus]

Diplomacy Ideas is not a mistake. IMO it should be the first idea you pick as Venice for the following reasons.

1. Austria - if you want to royally screw their future advance, then you use the Revolutionary CB before they become an Archduchy to change their government form to Merchant Republic. Sure you can ally them at the beginning, but they will eventually set you as a Rival when you grow more powerful.

2. Diplomatic Reputation + Relations - you can force vassalize the following entire nations at 100% early in the game; Milan, Switzerland & Tuscany. Monarch Points management is very important. You also need the reputation to help annex those nations faster as well as pull big allies like France, Castille/Spain et al into necessary wars for advancement.

Ottoman Empire usually isn't a threat early on in the game. They seem to be hardcoded to go after the Mamluks , which lasts pretty much the first half of the game allowing you to get your affairs in order back in Italy to increase your tax base which = more ships and troops. You can afford to let go of Naxos and Corfu, but hold on to Crete as long as you can so you create Byzantium as a vassal, if the Turks have already taken them off the map, for you to vassal feed the Balkans where it has cores to save ADM MP.

 

[AnguyTheArcher]

Group is good, the problem is I was unable to get relevant diplomatic ideas so far (I spent some diplo points during my wars). And I can't go after Milan yet because that would mean war with Austria and France (France won't join me in offensive war, but they would Austria in imperial defense). Poland also doesn't want to help against Austria, Hungary is an enemy so the only reliable ally is Bohemia and maybe Aragon who hate Austria.
I actually had a mission to vasalize Milan, and I managed to get the into the war without Austria (I attacked Hungary, who were their ally), but it was necessary to have 110 warscore for vassalization of Milan in separate peace so i was screwed.

Corfu and Naxos are good to trap Ottoman armies if you control the sea. Let them combine their stacks land a bait in Corfu and then move fleet to blacked them. After Otto war i released them and you have a core on Corfu, so you can annex them.

 

[InnocentIII]

I can actually answer this one, I saved partway into the game and went back to start again to see if this was possible. If you release Crete and Croatia as vassals, then sell Istria to Croatia, the option appears to add Venice to the empire at 194 relations with Austria . . . pretty tough to get as a republic without a RM. If you sell Brescia back to Milan, it drops to 194 straight away, then releasing Crete drops it to 184 and Croatia drops it to 174. Selling Istria to Croatia gives you a final total of 162, which is doable with relations + alliance + a gift.

Giving away Brescia is a bit tough for me to swallow though.

Thanks for the answer. It's a lot to go through - keeping it all with vassals, I mean - but sounds like a good option since you get everything back easily by annexing.