Venice -> Byzantium Gameplan

[DominusNovus]

So, I'm going to go do another Venice -> Byzantium game (with a quick stop over as Greece, just for the additional +1 base tax in some random province). I have one going at the moment in the mid 1600s or so, but I'm not 100% satisfied with my results; a lot of what I was doing was experimental. My goal is to simultaneously play expansionist, as well as role-play a bit.

My current plan is this:
- Be as expansionist as possible in the early game. If I can peaceably vassalize Byzantium, great (gonna be tricky, since they always rival Venice, but I plan on guaranteeing them to keep them safe from the Turks and then, when time is right, I'll attack Serbia to pull the Byzantines in, if I have to). I do not want to let Constantinople fall to the Turks, even though +6 basetax there is awesome. Ragusa, Urbino, Cyprus, vassalize the Knights, the usual easy targets, and hopefully start picking stuff off of the Turks and Mamlukes. How far do people think I can expand into Europe before I piss off enough powers there?

- Once I restore the Empire, I'm going to leave my trade capital at Constantinople. This is mainly to avoid the black hole of Ragusa. Damn German minors. Anyway, the vast majority of the worthwhile trade can feed into Constantinople anyway, so thats not big deal.

- My national ideas will be, as follows, in order:
1: Humanist (to justify why my country is about to go convert to Orthodox, since I feel like converting while Religious makes as much sense as converting while Zealous in CK2, plus I like the idea cost reduction)
2: Plutocratic (love it, gotta take it while still a Republic, so its early on the list, plus it has a good tech bonus)
3: Influence (this would be higher, but I'm afraid I might be holding up on restoring the Empire, just to get the Plutocratic, so I'll wait; besides, Venice's early vassals are tiny)
4: Religious (yes, its redundant with Humanist, but now I'll almost certainly be the Empire, and I want to stack my bonuses as I turn as much of the world Orthodox as possible, and we all love that CB, and now there's more roleplaying)
5-8: In no particular order, Diplomatic (to help manage even more vassals), Administrative (coring and the vassal integration policy), Expansionist (gonna build a trade empire in the east), Economic (strictly roleplaying at this point, I'm a huge fan of Adam Smith), Maritime (I like Confirm Thalassocracy), or Trade (I just like spamming Merchants). So, which two should I axe? I'm thinking Economic and either Maritime or Trade. Any particular order? I'm thinking Admin, Diplomatic, Expansionist and then whichever last one I keep.

- If I can manage to become HRE, fantastic. Of course, that requires a certainly level of finesse and luck when the religious wars happen.

Thats all for now. Its not a particularly challenging goal, I've done this plenty of times now. I'm just looking for advice on how to balance roleplaying and gaming, at the end of the day.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

1. Let Ottomans take Albania. Guarantee BYZ and spam galleys.
2. As soon as Ottomans hit someone in Anatolia, declare on them, sink their fleet, and blockade the strait. Cancel your guarantee on BYZ. You can do this pretty easily with BYZ itself, so doing it with Venice should be a joke.
3. Fabricate a claim on BYZ (Crete can do this I believe) and vassal them.
4. Take your core in Albania and return lots of cores to BYZ from Ottomans now that BYZ is your vassal, or maybe even leave Albania so you can use it again next war.
5. Once you've fed out BYZ, annex them, move capitol, culture drift/convert religion, form Greece --> BYZ. Enjoy your new cores on the Ottos.

You'll probably want religious somewhat early since the reformation + high tax stuff in Venice will be a pain to convert, as will future Sunni provinces.

Considering the -8 stab you eat from drifting, cost to annex BYZ in one way or another, and religious pressure though, it might be easier to just start as BYZ, though I suppose you're not western then so Venice would technically be slightly better.

The Sunni provinces will be really annoying with humanist instead of religious, but I suppose you can manage to convert them when you get the +3 NI and do a bit of creative vassal feeding otherwise so it'll work out. Combining both is silly but hey if you're playing for fun go for it.

 

[DominusNovus]

1. Let Ottomans take Albania. Guarantee BYZ and spam galleys.
2. As soon as Ottomans hit someone in Anatolia, declare on them, sink their fleet, and blockade the strait. Cancel your guarantee on BYZ. You can do this pretty easily with BYZ itself, so doing it with Venice should be a joke.
3. Fabricate a claim on BYZ (Crete can do this I believe) and vassal them.
4. Take your core in Albania and return lots of cores to BYZ from Ottomans now that BYZ is your vassal, or maybe even leave Albania so you can use it again next war.
5. Once you've fed out BYZ, annex them, move capitol, culture drift/convert religion, form Greece --> BYZ. Enjoy your new cores on the Ottos.

You'll probably want religious somewhat early since the reformation + high tax stuff in Venice will be a pain to convert, as will future Sunni provinces.

Considering the -8 stab you eat from drifting, cost to annex BYZ in one way or another, and religious pressure though, it might be easier to just start as BYZ, though I suppose you're not western then so Venice would technically be slightly better.

The Sunni provinces will be really annoying with humanist instead of religious, but I suppose you can manage to convert them when you get the +3 NI and do a bit of creative vassal feeding otherwise so it'll work out. Combining both is silly but hey if you're playing for fun go for it.

All steps I've done in my previous (and current) games. As far as the initial vassalization of Byzantium, I guess my main question is: Is it even possible to peacefully vassalize them (again, for roleplaying reasons)?

 

[Alsn]

All steps I've done in my previous (and current) games. As far as the initial vassalization of Byzantium, I guess my main question is: Is it even possible to peacefully vassalize them (again, for roleplaying reasons)?

Possible, yes, but they have far too much base tax to do this in any reasonable amount of time. Chances are if you keep them around that long through guarantees or what not, they'll get more provinces through revolts and end up taking even longer. Also, remember that Venice is a merchant republic, they have a penalty towards diplovassalization.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

All steps I've done in my previous (and current) games. As far as the initial vassalization of Byzantium, I guess my main question is: Is it even possible to peacefully vassalize them (again, for roleplaying reasons)?

It's unlikely, because you'd need to be mega rich or they'd need to lose stuff w/o completely dying. If they grow the could wind up over 40 tax too. It's definitely not something you'd want to count on.

 

[Incompetent]

All steps I've done in my previous (and current) games. As far as the initial vassalization of Byzantium, I guess my main question is: Is it even possible to peacefully vassalize them (again, for roleplaying reasons)?

It would be very hard to do so, because Constantinople alone has so much base tax, and you said you don't want to let them lose Constantinople. Force-vassalising on the other hand would be easy.

Also, I think if you form BYZ, you keep your old ideas. In particular, you don't get the big true faith tolerance and missionary strength bonuses that the 'true' Byzantium gets.

 

[AndreasPhokas]

well if you go religious first it makes stability 25% cheaper which is....yeah with all the stab hits you'll be taking

 

[DominusNovus]

It would be very hard to do so, because Constantinople alone has so much base tax, and you said you don't want to let them lose Constantinople. Force-vassalising on the other hand would be easy.

Also, I think if you form BYZ, you keep your old ideas. In particular, you don't get the big true faith tolerance and missionary strength bonuses that the 'true' Byzantium gets.

Nope, your ideas get swapped out. You even lose your government. You become completely indistinguishable from a normal Byzantium, other than your tech group.

 

[Incompetent]

Nope, your ideas get swapped out. You even lose your government. You become completely indistinguishable from a normal Byzantium, other than your tech group.

Ah cool, the wiki is out of date then. Many country formations don't swap ideas.

 

[DominusNovus]

Ah cool, the wiki is out of date then. Many country formations don't swap ideas.

As far as I know, it always swapped them out. I think the wiki just never addressed it in the first place.