Venice as a naval power

[1alexey]

not really.. even until the napoleonic wars both sweden and russia maintained heavy galley fleets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Svensksund

Oh, and in same war, in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vyborg_Bay_(1790)
Battle of Vyborg Bay, sweden had 21 ship of the line, Russia had 29.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Reval
Battle of Reval
22 ships of the line, 5 frigates, vs 9 ships of the line, 5 frigates.
So, aperenty, not only ships of the line were usefull, but also saw a lot of action, and were the core of the fleet for either Sweden and Russia alike.

Also, in Black sea:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kerch_Strait_(1790)
No galleys on either side, but 14 turkish vs 10 russian battleships, and sone frigates. Oh, and no reall galley involvment, usless you want to count a few xebecs as a galeys.

Or Earlier Turkish vs Russia war
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chesma



Or, even http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_of_8_July_1716
1716 Venice vs Turkey.
Turkey: The Turks had perhaps 62 vessels total, of which about 50 were proper warships. These included 1 96-gun battleship, 12 battleships of up to 84 guns, and 10 African ships of 50 guns. The rest had 54 guns.
1717 Venice vs Turkey.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_of_12_June_1717
The Venetians had left Corfu on 10 May 1717 with 25 battleships, and were joined on 18 May by Gloria Veneta. On about 24 May they left for the Dardanelles Strait, anchoring off Imbros on 8 June. On 10 June at 9am scouts reported that the Ottoman fleet were leaving the Dardanelles with 38 battleships and 6 galliots.


Does that proves my point about galleys falling out of fashion and being replaced with ships of the line as the major fighting force, even in inland seas by the start of 18 century?

 

[Beagá]

I think it does

Guess some people simply played too much Empire TW, galleys were pretty silly and OP there.

 

[Emperor Marcus]

I think it does

Guess some people simply played too much Empire TW, galleys were pretty silly and OP there.

I think you never played Empire Total War. Cause I remember pwning galleries with Ships of the Line like they were gnats.

 

[Beagá]

I think you never played Empire Total War. Cause I remember pwning galleries with Ships of the Line like they were gnats.

Of course you did kid, the AI sucked in everything in that game.

What I´m talking about, and there are vídeos of that in Youtube, are players spamming galleys and destroying everything with them, as they were armed with 32 pounders and with some galleys in parallel, they destroyed any ship passing in front of them very fast.

 

[victimizer]

Will Polish galleys have a nasty combat bonus in space?

I think you never played Empire Total War. Cause I remember pwning galleries with Ships of the Line like they were gnats.

Yes well, ETW naval warfare was fun but not very realistic.

 

[Emperor Marcus]

Of course you did kid, the AI sucked in everything in that game.

What I´m talking about, and there are vídeos of that in Youtube, are players spamming galleys and destroying everything with them, as they were armed with 32 pounders and with some galleys in parallel, they destroyed any ship passing in front of them very fast.

Ya get alot of anything and you can blow shit up real fast. And isnt that just what the Devs suggested you do with galleys use them in numbers against other ships.

 

[khardinal]

Here we go with some EU3 stats guys !

BIG SHIP :
Early game = Hull : 30; Cannons : 60 and speed : 4
Late game = Hull : 60; Cannons : 120 and speed : 5
Base price : 50 ducats

GALLEY :
Early game = Hull : 14; Cannons : 15 ( +1 damage in sea, -2 in oceans ) and speed : 8
Late game = Hull : 20; Cannons : 35 ( '' ) and speed : 8
Base price : 10 ducats !

AND, with naval tech, the shock modifier is high at start of the game for galley : +1 per level of tech, when it's only +0.5 for big ships.
Then, after naval tech level 27, shock modifier become higher for big ships +1.1; +1.2 ... until +3 when it's always +1 for galley ( same for fire modifier )
So it's pretty clear that the difference beetween them is " small " at start of the game and will increase with the time !
Moreover, the base price is very high for big ships, so it's gonna be hard to create and maintain them at start, when economy is bad; and same thing, it's gonna be easier with time !

So, like in history, the galleys will disappear with the time cause they just become obsolete !
But, it's pretty clear too that some nations which are access on land can't maintain a big ship fleet until they have a big economy ! So, galleys are the solutions for them ( if they are in sea )
For example : Ottomans, Russia, Sweden ( if focusing on land ) !
Finally, let's back to the subject : I think that a nation like Venice would not maintain a 100% galley fleet until the end of the game.
This country is focusing on naval, so it can be possible and recommended to build some big ships too, and in the long term only them !

 

[murlocmancer]

Galleys were still important near the end of the game (however the decline did begin in the 16th century, but it wasn't terrible) Swedend and Russia emassed them in 17th and 18th and med powers used them as their main ships for much of the time frame.

 

[Fawr]

In general, gibbel makes a good point about the way force limits don't work because they treat all types the same. However it's worth noting that the size of fleets went DOWN during the age of the SOL. In the Dutch Wars, 100 ship fleets (with no galleys) were used. But they became too big to be controlled, and also too expensive. The game never reflected this, as the sole criterion was number of guns.

The other reason why the number of ships involved in fleet battles went down was that initially ocean going ships were designed to both fight and trade, but as time when on they become more specialised. Most of the ships on both sides of the Spanish Armada conflict were converted merchantmen, but in the Napoleonic wars a few purpose designed naval vessels could outgun a large number of merchant ships.

 

[Lord Canterbury]

AND, with naval tech, the shock modifier is high at start of the game for galley : +1 per level of tech, when it's only +0.5 for big ships.
Then, after naval tech level 27, shock modifier become higher for big ships +1.1; +1.2 ... until +3 when it's always +1 for galley ( same for fire modifier )
So it's pretty clear that the difference beetween them is " small " at start of the game and will increase with the time !
Moreover, the base price is very high for big ships, so it's gonna be hard to create and maintain them at start, when economy is bad; and same thing, it's gonna be easier with time !

This was the key in EU3. Galleys start out roughly on par (but cheaper).... then circa 1540 (tech level 20) things start to swing the other way - largely due to heavy and light ships fire bonuses improving much much faster than galley's from this point.

I'd expect EU4 to be similar conceptually, though no doubt the details have been tweaked.

Which mean that Venice, with its galley NI is going to have a strong start but gradually weaken = just like RL. I'm looking forward to my first game as Venice to see if I can overcome this later game weakness.

 

[lemonsquid]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Svensksund

the painting looks like a naval mosh pit of sorts

 

[khardinal]

the painting looks like a naval mosh pit of sorts

Imagine what the hell was Trafalgar man :

 

[Beagá]

This was the key in EU3. Galleys start out roughly on par (but cheaper).... then circa 1540 (tech level 20) things start to swing the other way - largely due to heavy and light ships fire bonuses improving much much faster than galley's from this point.

I'd expect EU4 to be similar conceptually, though no doubt the details have been tweaked.

Which mean that Venice, with its galley NI is going to have a strong start but gradually weaken = just like RL. I'm looking forward to my first game as Venice to see if I can overcome this later game weakness.

Venice did not decay in power due to its navy or galleys being obsolete, but from economic failure and simply being too small to compete with the large, bureaucratic nations that appeared (also, Americas and Indies). So IMO if it remained a small land holding, then well, it´s screwed. If it manages to become big or unify Italy, then a big fleet with big galley support dominating the Med is totally plausible. What isn´t plausible is giving tons of ahistorical bonuses for galleys.

Therefore it´s more important to focus on LAND balance (above all the issue with Áustria spanking Venice by mission) than the navy.

 

[CanOmer]

Why galleys have same naval force limit with big ships? IMO, this is the main problem.

 

[LordChrinox]

Venice will be more challenging late games, the course of the country depends on your decisions.

 

[1alexey]

Galleys were still important near the end of the game (however the decline did begin in the 16th century, but it wasn't terrible) Swedend and Russia emassed them in 17th and 18th and med powers used them as their main ships for much of the time frame.

Well, all ship types were important, or they were scraped.

Which mean that Venice, with its galley NI is going to have a strong start but gradually weaken = just like RL. I'm looking forward to my first game as Venice to see if I can overcome this later game weakness.

The strong early game shoul allow you to snowball well into late game. Otherwise, you`re screwed anyway.

 

[Evans]

Venice did not decay in power due to its navy or galleys being obsolete, but from economic failure and simply being too small to compete with the large, bureaucratic nations that appeared (also, Americas and Indies). So IMO if it remained a small land holding, then well, it´s screwed. If it manages to become big or unify Italy, then a big fleet with big galley support dominating the Med is totally plausible. What isn´t plausible is giving tons of ahistorical bonuses for galleys.

Therefore it´s more important to focus on LAND balance (above all the issue with Áustria spanking Venice by mission) than the navy.

I think your right there, I have serious doubts about Venice's ability to hold her own on land.

 

[AlHasanAlbaghdadi]

I think your right there, I have serious doubts about Venice's ability to hold her own on land.

They're not supposed to anyway. there's a reason they couldn't expand much

 

[Traj161]

as you can see here, the early caracks are 4 times stronger on firepower and 2 times on speed, while the caracks cost 5times as much, I don't know if that mediteranean modifier is calculated in however

 

[unmerged(584823)]

Venice did not decay in power due to its navy or galleys being obsolete, but from economic failure and simply being too small to compete with the large, bureaucratic nations that appeared (also, Americas and Indies). So IMO if it remained a small land holding, then well, it´s screwed. If it manages to become big or unify Italy, then a big fleet with big galley support dominating the Med is totally plausible. What isn´t plausible is giving tons of ahistorical bonuses for galleys.

Therefore it´s more important to focus on LAND balance (above all the issue with Áustria spanking Venice by mission) than the navy.

If Venice manages to keep his balkans holdings and mediteranean islands I think they can manage to resist, they could also try colonization in order to control colonial trade, doesn't seem THAT hard to me.