Venetian government and ideas

[Froonk]

There are some minor inaccuracies with how the Venetian government functioned and its interaction with naval doctrines and flagships, moreover its ideas are very outdated and questionably ordered both on the accounts of their date.

1. Electorate tier should have a unique Venetian reform

Venice, while initially a more representative democracy where the general assembly of people held greater influence, by 1444 was a closed oligarchy with limited admission. While "Citizenry" can represent the earlier "Arengo" and the "Landowners" can represent the later arrangement of Venetian nobility as they came to have estates on Italian mainland, there is currently no way to represent the government form they had between 1300s and 1700s. I suggest here adding following reform in light of the legendary stability of the republic which earned it the name Serenissima:

Maintain the Great Council
-20% Stability cost modifier
-20% Advisor costs
-1% Yearly navy tradition decay

2. Venice should have a modifier for naval doctrine.

Now Venice itself wasn't too different from what is already present with its naval doctrines. However Venice had a unique ability to convert and repurpose their fleet and fleet behaviour quickly and effectively, they could change their ships between transports, merchant ships and warships easily. Here I suggest that Venice should be able to change their naval doctrine for much cheaper, to do this for Venetian government transports, lightships and galleys shouldn't count towards adopting a new naval doctrine. If that's not possible, simply reducing the naval doctrine cost to a quarter of what it normally would be could be helpful.

3. Venice should have a unique flagship modification

As per their quality naval guns and galleasses, but also with their long history of amphibious warfare using both oared and sail vessels, Venice should have easier time taking coastal forts. I suggest Venice should have access to following flagship modification:

Venetian mortars:
Our long range mortars are best quality and used by most skilled naval artillery crews, they will greatly assist sieges wherever they are present.
+2 siege impact on blockades

These changes should make Venice competitive with Portugal and Netherlands, while Portugal focuses on quickly taking land forts with nearly free barrages and faster landing troops with no penalty and Netherlands focuses on naval warfare with bonuses on morale, combat ability with heavy ships and leader fire, Venice instead relies on combined warfare from land and sea. They also lack a unique doctrine but would instead have versatility of being able to change doctrines in peace and wartime as they were famous for.

As for ideas, I will try to rearrange and improve rather than an overhaul. Defend the Law has been completely removed as it's same idea as Genoa has which theirs fit them more. Additions in green, removals in red.

Traditions:
+10% Global trade power
-15% Mercenary costs

+20% National sailors modifier

Venice from its inception relied heavily on mercenaries on land, and throughout its existence had a small land force and used mercenaries mainly, from Italy to Dalmatian coast to Albanians and Greeks. They should have this ability to use mercenaries right from start to represent their wars in Italy in 15th and 16th centuries, as well as their general reliance on mercenaries for land wars and sieges, from using crusaders to other armies whenever possible. Sailors have been moved to another idea.

Venetian Arsenal
+50% Naval force limit modifier
+5% Marine force limit

−20% Galley cost

Venetian arsenal was a legendary manufactury and first pre-industrial assembly line, its current bonuses are pitiful. -20% galley cost is 2 ducats saved per galley and galley maintenance is not too high to begin with and Venice already has maintenance reduction, current cost reduction only saves you maybe 500 ducats the whole game. Venetian arsenal should represent Venice's ability to field a large fleet and its associate industries being able to support marines on their ships with standardised weapons and armour.

Appointments from Bank of Venice
-0.5 Interest per annum
-0.1 Corruption yearly

"Venice established the first national bank in Europe and thanks to our state policies and stability we have very thorough control over our fiscal policies and financial flows. We should appoint officials from this bank to worthwhile clientele wherever they might be to guarantee access to loans and keep account of our finances."

Venice had first national bank in Europe and Venetian banks hosted wealth from all over Europe, including from many royal and noble families. It also had very in-depth and exhaustive audits and accounting, which meant it was highly trusted and state expenditure was very well known.

Printing Industry
+1 Diplomat

Unchanged, however there could be a better idea to represent Venetian printing industry than a diplomat.

Naval Conscription
−20% Naval maintenance modifier
+25% National sailors modifier

−5% Sailor maintenance

Sailor modifier has been moved from traditions to this idea and replaced sailor maintenance, it makes much more sense for naval conscription to be one to improve sailor modifier.

Stato da Màr
+10% Trade efficiency
+15% Fort defence

Venetian overseas colonies were defended expertly by Venetian garrisons in overseas forts and Venice paid special attention to their supplies and maintenance. Venice was involved in some of the fiercest and longest siege battles, especially in defence of their overseas forts and had state of art forts everywhere possible. So their stato da màr should also be represented in its fundamental defensive formation.

Venetian Gunnery
+25% Galley combat ability

"Our naval gunners became well respected for their expertise and they are critical to our success in naval warfare, we must ensure our galleys are always manned with best personnel to keep their superiority at sea."

Simply moving their galley combat ability earlier to better represent their pioneering role and advances in naval gunnery from late 15th century. The bonus itself is strongest in the game and should remain so as Venetian naval gunners in galleys were considered best of their time. It was this superior firepower and galleasses that provided greatest advantage in Lepanto as more than half of the ships and all of the galleasses were Venetian. Venice should have best galleys from the appropriate date when naval guns became decisive.

State Inquisition
+30% Foreign spy detection

Unchanged, but Venetian state inquisition was founded in 16th century so it has been moved to last idea.

Ambition:
20% Morale of Navies

Their ambition has been adjusted to provide a naval morale boost, Venetian sailors were generally noted for their bravery and willingness to fight, despite occasional misgivings, encouragement of sailors to perform and accomplishments of fleets always gained highest praise.

Overall aim of these idea changes is to make it so that Venice can have its deserved and reputed financial and naval power. In regards to navy, it's strong in quantity early on and its quality improves with introduction of naval guns. I also aimed to make it so like Netherlands they can punch way above their weight in navy as they contested with neighbouring Ottomans over the centuries. This was intended to make galleys to Venice to what heavy ships are to Netherlands in their fight with Spain. Venice should still be inferior in open sea as they lack bonuses to heavy ships and leaders.

While Venice had very competent troops, these were overall represented with their access to marines as well as their sieges and naval battles rather than directly on land. I think it's best to represent Venetian reliance on mercenaries on land and their competence in naval and siege warfare, as well as amphibious warfare. I also tried to distinguish their ideas from Genoese a bit, but Genoese ideas themselves need an overhaul and I am not as knowledgeable of their history, only that they relied on private ventures more.

This is intended as a buff to Venetian naval and siege warfare primarily, using mercenaries and blockades especially.

 

[Blackwhitecavias]

The ideas you are suggesting contain too many modifiers (all but one of your suggested ideas contain 2 modifiers, while even the strongest idea sets in the game generally only have at most 2-3 double ideas (except for traditions)) and seem a bit too strong on the naval side: They contain the following naval modifiers:
- +50% Naval force limit modifier
- −20% Naval maintenance modifier
- +25% National sailors modifier
- +25% Galley combat ability
- +20% Naval morale

Now let's compare this to 3 other European nations focused on naval warfare, England, Genoa and the Netherlands:
Great Britain has the following naval modifiers:
- +20% Morale of navies
- +15% Heavy ship combat ability
- +1 Naval leader maneuver
Genoa has the following modifiers:
- +20% Morale of navies
- +20% National sailors modifier
- −33% Galley cost
- +25% Naval force limit modifier
- −10% Shipbuilding time
- −20% Naval maintenance modifier
The Netherlands has the following naval modifiers:
- +25% National sailors modifier
- +50% Naval force limit modifier
- +2 Naval leader fire
- +10% Heavy ship combat ability (goverment)
- +10% naval force limit (if statists are in power)

So your ideas are probably straight up better in most cases (certainly in inland seas where galleys are stronger and the HSCA of GB and Ned are less strong) and it is then the question if this is a good thing or not (I am of the opinion that Venice should not be able to beat GB and NED on the open seas, but should beat NED and maybe GB in inland seas.

 

[ImperatorRoman]

There are some minor inaccuracies with how the Venetian government functioned and its interaction with naval doctrines and flagships, moreover its ideas are very outdated and questionably ordered both on the accounts of their date.

1. Venetian doge should rule for life

This is, simply put, how Venetian government worked and thus Venetian government reform should make doges rule for life. In addition, the "Consolidate Power In the Doge" reform shouldn't be making Doge rule for life. Venetian government had immense amount of checks and balances, as well as direct limitations to doge's power and this should be unique to Venice.

The Venetian Government reform already makes the ruler of Venice reign for life. The only reason "Consolidate the Power of the Doge" also makes the ruler reign for life is because that reform can be combined with the Plutocracy reform which normally has a term limit of 4 years.

 

[Froonk]

The ideas you are suggesting contain too many modifiers (all but one of your suggested ideas contain 2 modifiers, while even the strongest idea sets in the game generally only have at most 2-3 double ideas (except for traditions)) and seem a bit too strong on the naval side: They contain the following naval modifiers:
- +50% Naval force limit modifier
- −20% Naval maintenance modifier
- +25% National sailors modifier
- +25% Galley combat ability
- +20% Naval morale

Now let's compare this to 3 other European nations focused on naval warfare, England, Genoa and the Netherlands:
Great Britain has the following naval modifiers:
- +20% Morale of navies
- +15% Heavy ship combat ability
- +1 Naval leader maneuver
Genoa has the following modifiers:
- +20% Morale of navies
- +20% National sailors modifier
- −33% Galley cost
- +25% Naval force limit modifier
- −10% Shipbuilding time
- −20% Naval maintenance modifier
The Netherlands has the following naval modifiers:
- +25% National sailors modifier
- +50% Naval force limit modifier
- +2 Naval leader fire
- +10% Heavy ship combat ability (goverment)
- +10% naval force limit (if statists are in power)

So your ideas are probably straight up better in most cases (certainly in inland seas where galleys are stronger and the HSCA of GB and Ned are less strong) and it is then the question if this is a good thing or not (I am of the opinion that Venice should not be able to beat GB and NED on the open seas, but should beat NED and maybe GB in inland seas.

I am also of the opinion Venice should only be able to beat Netherlands and GB in inland seas but not in open seas, if you notice 3 out of 5 ideas are simply compensating for Merchant Republic quantity issue, regarding force limits, costs and sailors. They have only 2 quality bonuses, morale and galley combat ability, while lacking any bonuses to leaders. I consider it that it's roughly equivalent to Netherlands, more on quantity than quality. Also do consider that Netherlands has a flagship bonus for morale, which is generally a must have for flagships if you intend to do naval battles and GB has a +1 modifier bonus naval doctrine near their territory, which is also often where you fight. Naval leader fire and naval leader manoeuvres especially are very decisive in naval engagements, as amount of cannons and their damage within engagement width is what decides battles rather than the total amount of ships.

So in open seas, Venice would have only morale bonus advantage of 15% against Netherlands, while lacking in +2 leader fire and heavy ship combat ability. Morale advantage is also relatively lower when considered together with naval tradition bonuses. I think in such a case Netherlands should definitely win that engagement all else equal. As for GB, Venice would be at a -1 roll disadvantage, as well as 15% heavy combat ability and naval leader manoeuvre disadvantage, I think that here too GB should win easily, all else equal. Lacking any bonuses to combat width (which naval leader manoeuvre is) or heavy ship combat ability tends to seal the deal generally, let alone being at a -1 roll disadvantage. I think the fact that heavies have better reach in map overall and that they can even hold up in inland seas with sufficient boost to their hulls then doing lots of disengagements should also count towards Venice having stronger bonuses to galleys. Venice shouldn't be able to blockade Netherlands or GB with galleys, although I do think galleys shouldn't be able to blockade, period.

It's two ideas that have only 1 modifier, galley combat ability and spy defence. You are however correct that it's heavy on the double ideas but I consider that the modifiers are generally on the weaker side. I suppose idea cost could be removed from "Printing Industry" and naval attrition from the ambition. I will adjust according to that. I think collectively the naval bonuses are currently in ballpark of what a navy focused idea set for a state pioneer and exemplar in naval warfare and certainly the best one in terms of galleys should be. I specifically tried to make it comparable to Genoa, as well as spread out on government, doctrine and flagship bonuses like Netherlands and GB (with its appropriate opportunity costs). Galleys should be to Venice what cavalry is to Poland, they should have superiority in galley warfare. If Poland has its Siege of Vienna then Venice has similar claim (and probably greater considering ratio and importance of ships involved) in Lepanto.

I think there are some changes to be made to galleys overall, including their ability to blockade, their sailor maintenance and the attrition they suffer in non-coastal areas. If they couldn't blockade, suffered much higher attrition when outside supply range and especially not near coasts and costed much higher maintenance of sailors as they did in reality then the balance between heavy ships and galleys would shift enough that galleys should be able to decisively win near coasts in inland seas. In such a case Venetian superiority in galley warfare would be in its proper context.

 

[Froonk]

As per Dev diary of September 1st, 2020

Malaya is getting following bonuses to their naval warfare:

25% Galley combat ability
15% Naval morale
Coastal roll bonus +1
Ship durability 10%

Not only they completely and utterly eclipsed Venice in galley warfare, who only get 25% galley combat ability which used to be unique but they are arguably better than Netherlands in open seas now with their ship durability and coastal roll bonus, as well as naval morale. They rival Great Britain in open seas, while definitely outclassing them in closed seas.

Even with my above suggestions, Malaya ideas would still superior in naval combat compared to Venice in both galley warfare and open sea warfare. It highlights both the power creep in the game, as well as how outdated Venetian ideas for naval warfare are. Considering in galley warfare there was no power as capable as Venice in both production and usage of galleys.

Of course not to mention Malaya gets following bonuses to their economy and land warfare too:

In their traditions:
Global trade power 15% (higher than Venice who only gets 10%)
10% land morale (very few have this strong military bonuses on tradition)

As well following:
Trade efficiency 15% (higher than Venice who only gets 10%)

 

[Froonk]

A small change to improve the mission tree of Venice a lot would be to add 5% marine limit to a few more missions to increase number of Venetian marines. Moreover the mission "Contest Genoese Trade" is very difficult to accomplish without conquering most of Northern Italy, while the mission itself gives claims on the places you need to conquer. Changing it to be "Have More trade power in Genoa trade node than Genoa" would be a much more reasonable goal. As it appears that the mission was designed in such a way you would declare trade war on Genoa and occupy their capital rather than to outright conquer entire Northern Italy and Genoa to achieve.

 

[Hezekiah]

Could you move the galley combat ability and the diplomat earlier in the Venetian ideas? The early clashes with the Ottomans can be decisive for Venice.

When I last played Venice (1.24), I was immensely disappointed by Venetian ideas, and I only found the diplomat useful since I had neutered the Osman by the time that I got the Galley Combat ability.

While your changes are nice, I think Venice, Genoa, the other Italian maritime republics, and the German merchant republics all need a major rework.

 

[Froonk]

Could you move the galley combat ability and the diplomat earlier in the Venetian ideas? The early clashes with the Ottomans can be decisive for Venice.

When I last played Venice (1.24), I was immensely disappointed by Venetian ideas, and I only found the diplomat useful since I had neutered the Osman by the time that I got the Galley Combat ability.

While your changes are nice, I think Venice, Genoa, the other Italian maritime republics, and the German merchant republics all need a major rework.

I don't think they need the galley combat ability that early, they would completely be unchallengable if that was the case. Early on they start with good economic base and fleet to easily have more galleys than anyone and with free oarsmen naval doctrine they can beat just about anyone.

Ideally they would do a content update touching all merchant republics, as they are so outdated by now (particularly the trade leagues and trading cities as per my suggestions).

I didn't expect it but Venice is actually one of top 20 most played nations. As per latest dev diary. So at least fixing the ideas and how trade leagues work would be a huge improvement to their gameplay.

 

[Hezekiah]

I don't think they need the galley combat ability that early, they would completely be unchallengable if that was the case. Early on they start with good economic base and fleet to easily have more galleys than anyone and with free oarsmen naval doctrine they can beat just about anyone.

Ideally they would do a content update touching all merchant republics, as they are so outdated by now (particularly the trade leagues and trading cities as per my suggestions).

I didn't expect it but Venice is actually one of top 20 most played nations. As per latest dev diary. So at least fixing the ideas and how trade leagues work would be a huge improvement to their gameplay.

You say that, but the earlier parts of EU4 are near the height of Venetian power. I think their early bonuses should be stronger.

 

[Froonk]

You say that, but the earlier parts of EU4 are near the height of Venetian power. I think their early bonuses should be stronger.

It depends, it is true that earlier parts of EU4 was the height of relative Venetian power. However their expertise and quality in galley warfare really peaked with introduction of gunpowder cannons, particularly after 1530s. That's about what the galley combat ability coincides with, as well as being online for the rough estimate of time period of Lepanto. It would be appropriate I think if they changed the traditions and the first idea as per suggestions here to have mercenary cost reduction and increased naval force limit they would still be particularly powerful in the early part of the game as they'd both have cheaper mercenaries as well as a massive galley and light ship fleet.