Vassals mothballing forts, tanking warscore

[Curiouser]

I noticed that whenever I create a vassal in the Balkans, they cannot afford to maintain their forts, even if it is just a single one at the capital province. As a result, it's worse than the vassals having no forts at all, because the enemy sieges down the mothball-fort province in one tick, and then I have to regularly siege the fort province to get it back because the enemy stops mothballing upon taking it over.

Suggestions on how to solve this? Will giving just enough subsidies fix the problem? Eg, 1 ducat subsidy for a poor vassal with one fort?

In the most recent case, I have newly released Croatia and it has the single province of Dalmatia, which is not dirt-poor.

More generally, it seems flawed that vassals mothball even their capital province. It's not just a financial issue; this is not how vassals should behave when wars begin. It's gotten to the point where I just destroy forts that might exist before I sell provinces to vassals, because they can't be relied on to use them. But forts in capital provinces are automatic and can't be destroyed...

 

[Aries666]

I'm pretty sure the capital fort (1 fort level) can't be mothballed and doesn't cost maintenance. If they also have a fort there (2 fort levels) they could mothball that. Try mothballing all your own forts the capital still retains 1000 men which is the 1 fort level.

 

[Shaaaq]

I'm pretty sure the capital fort (1 fort level) can't be mothballed and doesn't cost maintenance. If they also have a fort there (2 fort levels) they could mothball that. Try mothballing all your own forts the capital still retains 1000 men which is the 1 fort level.

Correct me if I'm wrong here:
They can be mothballed but will still maintain a garrison of 1000.
I found that feeding trade nodes/gold to my vassals was enough, in one of my games I had a march with forts in every province but found them mothballing even with a large income at around the level 2 fort mark.
Perhaps there needs to be an event that gives your vassals gold in wars to maintain forts when they cannot afford to maintain them?

 

[zedyue]

An event/decision to ask your overlord for funds during a war when your income is in the negative due to forts would be nice. (yes - x ducats per month to vassal and lowered liberty desire, no - vassal disbands fort and has higher liberty desire)

Or something.

 

[taltamir]

I'm pretty sure the capital fort (1 fort level) can't be mothballed and doesn't cost maintenance. If they also have a fort there (2 fort levels) they could mothball that. Try mothballing all your own forts the capital still retains 1000 men which is the 1 fort level.

You can build a real fort on top of the capital fort. this adds their levels together. Very nice, but I have not seen yet what it does when mothballed (probably nothing pretty)

I think fort maintenance cost is very wrong right now. it is especially punishing for smaller nations and rewarding for larger nations. Maybe if it scaled based on how many forts you had?

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

Isn't the cost already per fort maintained? Thus it is linearly scaled by how many forts you have, at least unless I've missed something.

 

[MWSampson]

The problem is that when you subsidise at the rate of 1 ducat/month they spend it on other things, when all you want is that bloody fort.

 

[Aries666]

You can build a real fort on top of the capital fort. this adds their levels together. Very nice, but I have not seen yet what it does when mothballed (probably nothing pretty)

I think fort maintenance cost is very wrong right now. it is especially punishing for smaller nations and rewarding for larger nations. Maybe if it scaled based on how many forts you had?

I'm not sure, playing Ming fort maintenance seems pretty punishing around 14 ducats/month at start and that doesn't even come close to full coverage. I would check but I am work just load up a game as a small nation with just a capital fort and mothball to see the effect, I know for certain you keep the garrison but I don't know if it affects maintenance as I'm not even sure you pay maintenance on a level 1 cap fort.

 

[FieldMedic]

Yeah I liberated Georgia as Russia and made them a march. I then built them a really nice fort to help hold back the Ottomans in the event of war ... only to find to my horror that they never garrisoned the damn thing and the O-Empire just walked right in :|. Had to re-take my own fort that the Ottomans basically took for free! Gahh!

 

[Curiouser]

Suggestion: the game should include a subject interaction to pay specifically for a vassal's fort costs and that's it. As it is now, subsidizing them does not guarantee they spend the money the way you want, as MWSampson said.

Indeed, vassals' capital province forts are active.

However, in my current game, Dalmatia _both_ has a fort and, in this game, is the capital of my vassal Croatia and I have indeed seen it mothballed when war is active. I assume that means that _all_ the fort levels are mothballed, instead of just the added fort level.

In that case, it would be WAD if the capital level 1 fort is active and the added fort is not. However, IIRC, Hungary walked straight through it. But capital forts don't exert ZoC, so I'm a bit confused what the mothball means for a province with capital fort + added fort.

In my current game, FWIW, I subsidized Croatia with 1 ducat/month and eventually they turned on the fort.

 

[taltamir]

I'm not sure, playing Ming fort maintenance seems pretty punishing around 14 ducats/month at start and that doesn't even come close to full coverage

Now imagine you are a OPM whose income is 0.1 a month

 

[Aries666]

Now imagine you are a OPM whose income is 0.1 a month

There's no such thing because every nation gets a base 1 ducat a month and such nations also don't need a fort because their level one capital fort is free.

 

[pedrito_elcabra]

Easy solution:

If vassal has forts it can't afford to maintain, it should sell them. That way very poor vassals would always have at least their capital fort active at all times.

 

[Illianor123]

Capitol fort will always have 1000 men. You can mothball castles in the province, but you will still have the 1000 man garrison.

You need to subsidise them at more than 1gold a month, some to spend on other things, some to spend on the forts, or just grow them big enough to pay for it themselves.

 

[taltamir]

There's no such thing because every nation gets a base 1 ducat a month

Interesting, since when is that a thing?
Anyways, 1.1 income is still very punishing, what with your basic expenses (which, incidentally, got a lot more expensive in CS)

such nations also don't need a fort because their level one capital fort is free.

Level 1 capital fort is a joke. It can be conquered by a hard sneeze and doesn't even project a zone of control.

But fine. not a OPM but anything smaller than your ming. Someone with half your provinces. The fact remains that the bigger you are, the more affordable forts become, since you only really benefit from having them on the border

 

[IIWW]

Interesting, since when is that a thing?

1.12

 

[Wizzington]

I'll see about tweaking the AI to prioritize forts more when they just have one or two like this. Especially if they're a march.

 

[Octavius Antony]

There's no such thing because every nation gets a base 1 ducat a month and such nations also don't need a fort because their level one capital fort is free.

You don't get the base 1 income as a vassal state. It gets reduced down to .25 I believe.

 

[isansom]

If you want to see this in action from day 1, play Poland / The Commonwealth. I've had to liberate Moldovia's fort in their sea-side province more than once. Not devastating, but a bit irritating and as the OP said, worse than if they didn't have a fort at all.

Perhaps Marches (and others?) should keep the 1 ducat base, rather than being knocked down to 0.25? I know there was a good reason for doing that to Vassals, but Marches are supposed to help protect their liege, and they seem to be pretty weak without any income as is now. Would give another reason for wanting to create a March - right now they're just an almost-as-weak-vassal with no better end state than being eaten anyway

 

[Aries666]

You don't get the base 1 income as a vassal state. It gets reduced down to .25 I believe.

Indeed I forgot we were talking about vassals, my bad.