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dorukdorucu

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Hello, i have recently started a de Normandie game, trying to grab as much land as possible (ultimately a world conquest, however i don't think i can manage it, even with the heretic holy war CB) and i'm playing my 3rd king (and 1st emperor :p ) the problem is, even though i have medium CA my vassals can still fight each other. I thought this was impossible? I am running 1.07 with SOI and LoR DLC's and a couple more (dynasty shields, music etc.) I have modded the game a little bit for creating some titles(for example, allowing kingdom of wales if you already are the emperor of britannia) however i don't think the changes are relevant.
Please help me, as i can't change succession law to primogeniture which is going to cause a lot of trouble to my son, since i have 7 kingdoms(ireland, england, france, aquitaine, leon, castille, aragon) and it will be strange to say the least having them divided.
 

dorukdorucu

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Yes, i know. They have no faction wars etc. it clearly says:
....'s war on ... for ...'s claim on ...
Also, faction wars and independence wars can only be declared against me, am i right? Or can an independence faction also be formed in a kingdom or duchy etc.?
 

the kookaburra

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Change to elective and vote for your son.
 

Therion

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Can you guys actually address the OP? This is happening to me as well. Vassals are fighting for each others' holdings on medium CA when the tooltip says they shouldn't.
 

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You sure it is not a vassal revolt?

So you crown authority prevents your direct vassals picking on each other, but if a vassal of one of your Dukes revolts against him (because he has a personal claim on the Duchy) you Crown Authority does not prevent that.

And from the duration of the revolt the "revolting" Count is listed as one of your vassals (thus your vassals are fighting)... Not sure if it supposed to work like that but it does. I had that exact thing last night...
 

dorukdorucu

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You sure it is not a vassal revolt?

So you crown authority prevents your direct vassals picking on each other, but if a vassal of one of your Dukes revolts against him (because he has a personal claim on the Duchy) you Crown Authority does not prevent that.

And from the duration of the revolt the "revolting" Count is listed as one of your vassals (thus your vassals are fighting)... Not sure if it supposed to work like that but it does. I had that exact thing last night...
Wait, so vassals of vassals are NOT affected by crown authority? That may be the cause, since the wars are declared by counts on dukes for claims. Thank you, although i am wondering if there is any way to mod it so it effects ALL vassals in my realm.
 

Bob_the_Insane

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Wait, so vassals of vassals are NOT affected by crown authority? That may be the cause, since the wars are declared by counts on dukes for claims. Thank you, although i am wondering if there is any way to mod it so it effects ALL vassals in my realm.

I think it is working as intended because it is about vassal - lord relations and not vassal to vassal relations if you get my meaning. If I had kept that Count as my own vassal or if I had given him to another Duke I don't think it could have happened. But because he had a claim on his lords title and obviously felt powerful enough to pursue it that is his right obviously. I made the choice of making the count a vassal of his De Jure Duke to make things easier in the future but it went a little Pete Tong...

It does not matter how high you set Crown Authority, a vassal with a claim on your title could still declare on you in pursuit of the title...

You can get a lot of that in England after the Norman invasion if you have not cleared out the Saxon rulers. They have also sorts of claims and you can have half the county in arms dealing with Vassal revolts even on Medium CA...

It does feel a little odd when you can't help you favourite Duke defend himself from a revolting vassal, but I guess those are the rules of war and do you really want a Duke that can't even keep order in his own Duchy? Even if it is your son and heir... :D
 

FabiusBile

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Look, i don't think you people understand what i'm trying to say here: I can't change succession laws and am stuck with gavelkind because my vassals are fighting while they theoretically shouldn't be able to.

Faction wars that target the Liege will always fire, regardless of CA. Else Absolute Crown Authority would prevent Vassals from rebelling at all. That means your a vassal of a vassal may still start a faction war on his liege.
 

Tokie

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I have been trying to change succession law in my Roman Empire for the past 250 years now. Never got the opportunity because of stupid vassals revoke/revolt that never ends because they lack the soldiers to finish their job. I delegate as many vassals as possible. I even hand out kingdoms in hoping there is a chance my vassals are not fighting their vassals. 250 years now and counting...

I am very temped to mod this requirement out. As it stands, you need to get LUCKY because someone somewhere will be fighting their liege. And it takes FOREVER because they are fighting at a stalemate for 50 years until one of them dies. :(
 

icon41gimp

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This is what happens when you give everyone under you only one county each. The wars go on forever. Make your dukes and kings more muscular with larger demesnes and these wars are typically over quickly.
 

FabiusBile

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This is what happens when you give everyone under you only one county each. The wars go on forever. Make your dukes and kings more muscular with larger demesnes and these wars are typically over quickly.

Correct, a duke/king with all his de jure counties for his duchies can only target you in the first place.
 

dorukdorucu

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I think it is working as intended because it is about vassal - lord relations and not vassal to vassal relations if you get my meaning. If I had kept that Count as my own vassal or if I had given him to another Duke I don't think it could have happened. But because he had a claim on his lords title and obviously felt powerful enough to pursue it that is his right obviously. I made the choice of making the count a vassal of his De Jure Duke to make things easier in the future but it went a little Pete Tong...

It does not matter how high you set Crown Authority, a vassal with a claim on your title could still declare on you in pursuit of the title...

You can get a lot of that in England after the Norman invasion if you have not cleared out the Saxon rulers. They have also sorts of claims and you can have half the county in arms dealing with Vassal revolts even on Medium CA...

It does feel a little odd when you can't help you favourite Duke defend himself from a revolting vassal, but I guess those are the rules of war and do you really want a Duke that can't even keep order in his own Duchy? Even if it is your son and heir... :D
Well maybe it does work as intended, however it seems strange. "Oh hello, i'm the king of England and i forbid vassals from fighting eachother!" "Meh sounds fine dude, i'll just go claim my liege's duchy then." -DECLARES WAR-
And you are completely right about the saxon lords, being a cathar english emperor of Britannia, France and northern spain, i certainly know what people with right claims can do. As i also claimed AND invaded both France and England. Was gonna invade the HRE as well but couldn't because i had northern spain, making my realm bigger then theirs. And then my ruler died and his claim went with him :(

This is what happens when you give everyone under you only one county each. The wars go on forever. Make your dukes and kings more muscular with larger demesnes and these wars are typically over quickly.
Well thay MAY be the exact problem actually. Too powerful direct vassals=higher possibility of revolt, too powerless vassals=infinite infighting. Although i DO believe you can somehow force your vassals to have too little troops by maxing out all laws, the side effects certainly make it worthless. I do have an idea about what can be done though:
step 1-)Make sure your ruler is REALLY old(60-65 etc. but having him TOO old may also mean that he dies before the process is complete=FAIL)
2-)Revoke every single duchy, county and barony you can. You will get -100 opinion with all vassals however since they aren't counts or above now, the game simply won't care about them.
3-)Change succession law.
4-)???
5-)PROFIT!
That is, unless the accumulated cruelty maluses carry over to your heir, in which case you are...fornificated? :p you get what i mean though.
((There is a workaround, simply get infinite numbers of minor nobles/debudantes/holy men to take over from where your vassals left. and you'll be fine.))
 

AttilaTheFun

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Well thay MAY be the exact problem actually. Too powerful direct vassals=higher possibility of revolt, too powerless vassals=infinite infighting. Although i DO believe you can somehow force your vassals to have too little troops by maxing out all laws, the side effects certainly make it worthless. I do have an idea about what can be done though:
step 1-)Make sure your ruler is REALLY old(60-65 etc. but having him TOO old may also mean that he dies before the process is complete=FAIL)
2-)Revoke every single duchy, county and barony you can. You will get -100 opinion with all vassals however since they aren't counts or above now, the game simply won't care about them.
3-)Change succession law.
4-)???
5-)PROFIT!
That is, unless the accumulated cruelty maluses carry over to your heir, in which case you are...fornificated? :p you get what i mean though.
((There is a workaround, simply get infinite numbers of minor nobles/debudantes/holy men to take over from where your vassals left. and you'll be fine.))

IIRC, Having too large a demesne actually gives you a negative income modifier--I think that having 2x your demesne limit gives you basically 0 total income (Correct me if I'm wrong, though)
However, revoking titles is a crucial part of maintaining control over a large kingdom--if used at the right time.

I usually end up dividing each ruler's rule into several phases, the length of each phase depending on their relative power.
Phase I: The stick and the carrot (or patrimony and tyranny)
Whenever a new ruler ascends, you have to figure out which subjects are trustworthy and will be your allies, and which ones are conniving schemers that will cause you nothing but trouble. Anyone with a large duchy and a generally positive opinion of you, or other necessary traits (easy allies, your firstborn child, anyone with a good claim), you want to improve relations with as much as possible. send gifts, bestow any unnecessary titles, and get relations high with them. High relations are crucial to having large levies from your vassals.
Anyone with impossible demands (such as "desires duchy of x, y and z" at -25 relations apiece) or with the ambitious trait (a whopping -50 modifier to relations) I assassinate, imprison or revoke titles.
Fill your cabinet with trustworthy advisors and KEEP your relations with them good (ESPECIALLY your spymaster, otherwise he'll plot against you).

Phase II: expand & change laws
Once you've solidified your support base, picked your allies and neutralized your enemies, it's time to expand. Push claims for your powerful vassals (which, additionally, gives you a significant relations bonus), fight infidels for the religious bonus, and reward your favorite vassals with virgin land. Any land that you don't immediately need, bequeath to your heir so your other vassals won't fight over it, and so your next generation ruler has extra titles and a large demesne to start with.
If your vassals fight each other, you can end most wars based on an individual's claim by assassinating the bearer of the claim. You can also give holdings to whichever side you want to see triumph. Also, avoid allowing regencies take control over counties or duchies, as they're susceptible to weaker claims.

Phase III: Paranoia
Once you've expanded enough, met your goals for that ruler (including law changes), start getting old and fearing for your death, it's time to become a paranoid old coot. Start thinking about who's going to cause trouble for your heir, and revoke as many higher titles as you possibly can. Try to avoid rebellions, but hateful vassals isn't always bad because eventually they'll just assassinate you and you can start meeting your goals for the next generation.

My biggest problem with this strategy is that if you assassinate/execute your vassals, you're more likely to have regencies and other vassals pushing their weak claims--but I'd much rather have vassals fighting each other than rebelling against me.
 
Last edited:

Talq

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There are two very large loopholes in the 'vassals can't wage war on each other' authority limit.

One is faction wars (count starts a faction to claim duchy of x and activates it). These are less common in 1.08, but still happen. The other is that vassals with land outside the de-jure territory of your crown laws can start wars, including inside your de-jure territory (you can see this playing an Italian noble - you are unconstrained by the HREs crown laws because Italy isn't in their de-jure territory, and can claim duchies inside HREs territory to your heart's content).

I agree the requirement for no vassal wars when changing succession laws is just retarded, especially with so many blatant loopholes like the faction system and no way to deal with them short of indirect nonsense like revoking their titles w tyranny.
 

Grifen88

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That'll explain why I have my earl declaring on his duke for his land.

And the two armies standing around doing nothing.

Could we have an option to force white peace between vassals in your kingdom? It would definitely solve most of these issues. (I'm fine with taking a relationship penalty just to get these peasants to stop fighting.)
 

dorukdorucu

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IIRC, Having too large a demesne actually gives you a negative income modifier--I think that having 2x your demesne limit gives you basically 0 total income (Correct me if I'm wrong, though)
You are right, however it's the exact point. Trying to complete the plan ASAP and re-distributing the land. The same thing you do with invasions and/or claimants. I for example simply get a lot of claimants after an invasion/big war for many claims/holy war for a big duchy and give all of them land. It may take some time for them to arrive though so i have to keep my demesne over the limit, basically getting a "demesne too big" event every couple days. It does cost me some money and a couple rebellions maybe, however in the end i may get 2 times the realm i started with IF everything goes well. So we are talking about eating some big penalties for a short time, in the end giving you some very good benefits like new succession law, or another kingdom etc.