Vassals fighting each other, realm peace and all that

[stan88]

So, I haven't played the game since conclave removed "vassals can't fight each other option" because it would ruin my late games as I wrote in another thread:

""The late game with an empire turns into a clusterfuck. I'm in 1200 and I don't know what's going on anymore. The vassals wage wars on each other none stop. My viceroyalties are all messed up. I tried to fix it. I tried hard and I did, but all went back to the same old mess in a matter of years so I just gave up. Taking away an ability to stop vassal wars is the worst idea ever.""

Yes, yes I know not everyone plays the top liege but hell lots of people do and this thing is pretty much game breaking.Vassals fighting each other doesn't bring any new challenge as I can easily crush any one of them. It's just plain annoying because I have to constantly do it so I can keep my lands organized. The question is will it be fixed in any way in the future? CK2 is my favorite game but I can't enjoy it anymore in the current state.

 

[Silversweeeper]

I don't think there are any plans to change it at the moment, but I believe there is a mod that adds a law for it if you revoke all the council powers. Disabling Conclave also brings back the old CA laws, which is another way to get back the ability to prevent vassal wars (aside from those caused by attempted revokes/imprisonments/factions). It is also possible to mod it in other ways (e.g. retaining the Realm Peace vote if you revoke all council powers, having both CA and council powers, modding CBs to prevent vassal wars under some or all circumstances, etc.).

 

[psammeticus]

I would like to see it added back as a crown law like inheritance and investiture. I would not mind having a tech or law restriction for it either. Realm expansion by vassals ceases pretty early because they are too busy cannibalizing each other or falling prey to internal factions.

 

[Iron Chariots]

Yes, yes I know not everyone plays the top liege but hell lots of people do and this thing is pretty much game breaking.

I hate how overused the term "gamebreaking" is. How on earth is this "gamebreaking?" Does it create some sort of instant lose condition? Is there some horribly overpowered exploit that results form this? All it does is makes playing as a vassal a bit more reasonable, and makes it a bit harder to keep the ridiculously ahistorical "clean vassal borders" that some people seem inexplicably obsessed with.

 

[Kayden_II]

The most annoying Thing in the Game is the Ability, that You can fabricate a Fake-Claim, Which results in such endless Wars and Border-Gore ...

I have removed It.

 

[Thrake]

I hate how overused the term "gamebreaking" is. How on earth is this "gamebreaking?" Does it create some sort of instant lose condition? Is there some horribly overpowered exploit that results form this? All it does is makes playing as a vassal a bit more reasonable, and makes it a bit harder to keep the ridiculously ahistorical "clean vassal borders" that some people seem inexplicably obsessed with.

Vassals fighting their own wars, what a strange idea That's pretty much one of the key features of CK2 in my view, that is a largely decentralized power with constant petty feuds.

 

[Sonmi]

So, I haven't played the game since conclave removed "vassals can't fight each other option" because it would ruin my late games as I wrote in another thread:

""The late game with an empire turns into a clusterfuck. I'm in 1200 and I don't know what's going on anymore. The vassals wage wars on each other none stop. My viceroyalties are all messed up. I tried to fix it. I tried hard and I did, but all went back to the same old mess in a matter of years so I just gave up. Taking away an ability to stop vassal wars is the worst idea ever.""

Yes, yes I know not everyone plays the top liege but hell lots of people do and this thing is pretty much game breaking.Vassals fighting each other doesn't bring any new challenge as I can easily crush any one of them. It's just plain annoying because I have to constantly do it so I can keep my lands organized. The question is will it be fixed in any way in the future? CK2 is my favorite game but I can't enjoy it anymore in the current state.

Enforce realm peace.

Temporary solution, but at least you'll have peace for a time.

 

[Harassercat]

I pretty much started playing this game with Conclave on. Don't really see the problem with this, I *really like* the fact that running a large realm can be tricky, especially if you insist on a very perfectionist, control-freaky view. It's going to be complicated, messy and illogical.... as medieval politics were! In threads I've seen arguing about this then many players bothered by vassals fighting seem to be thinking of a post-medieval state with absolute authority of the monarch, a docile aristocracy, bureaucratic administration and rationalist ideas about the state and its integrity and interests. That's 18th century people, not the time period of CK2.

I'm happy to play the game with the added challenge of managing vassal expansion within the realm. Strategic timing of realm peace, watch out for owing favors to your big vassals, and outside of stopping them with the realm peace try to rein them in through intrigue or by boosting the smaller vassals... or if all else fails, go for some tyranny once in a while. Last but not least, consider if it's really a problem, maybe it doesn't matter if some duke holds a county over on the other side of the kingdom.

 

[Iron Chariots]

I pretty much started playing this game with Conclave on. Don't really see the problem with this, I *really like* the fact that running a large realm can be tricky, especially if you insist on a very perfectionist, control-freaky view. It's going to be complicated, messy and illogical.... as medieval politics were! In threads I've seen arguing about this then many players bothered by vassals fighting seem to be thinking of a post-medieval state with absolutely authority of the monarch, with a docile aristocracy, bureaucratic administration and rationalist ideas about the state and its integrity and interests. That's 18th century people, not the time period of CK2.

I'm happy to play the game with the added challenge of managing vassal expansion within the realm. Strategic timing of realm peace, watch out for owing favors to your big vassals, and outside of stopping them with the realm peace try to rein them in through intrigue or by boosting the smaller vassals... or if all else fails, go for some tyranny once in a while. Last but not least, consider if it's really a problem, maybe it doesn't matter if some duke holds a county over on the other side of the kingdom.

Honestly, not only is it not a problem, but game mechanics make it very useful to have your vassals hold counties far away from their main center of power. I love being able to call up my large vassals' armies wherever I need them.

 

[cerpintaxt475]

I hate how overused the term "gamebreaking" is.

I wish I could agree with this more than once.

 

[ragnarok246]

OP clearly stated he's using VR's. No need for comments along the lines of "pretty borders are ahistoric". The game might not be completely broken, but ERE is in a shabby state since conclave / patch 2.5. Please continue being in denial.

 

[drakon136]

OP clearly stated he's using VR's. No need for comments along the lines of "pretty borders are ahistoric". The game might not be completely broken, but ERE is in a shabby state since conclave / patch 2.5. Please continue being in denial.

...How are they in a shabby state? The only real issue I've seen with the ERE in Conclave is with the "oust from power" wars against a viceroyal king not being invalidated when he dies.

 

[stan88]

I hate how overused the term "gamebreaking" is. How on earth is this "gamebreaking?" Does it create some sort of instant lose condition? Is there some horribly overpowered exploit that results form this? All it does is makes playing as a vassal a bit more reasonable, and makes it a bit harder to keep the ridiculously ahistorical "clean vassal borders" that some people seem inexplicably obsessed with.

It makes me not want to play the game anymore. So yeah. It's gamebreaking. And it doesn't make anything harder. It makes it annoying.

Vassals fighting their own wars, what a strange idea That's pretty much one of the key features of CK2 in my view, that is a largely decentralized power with constant petty feuds.

And the liege can't even intervene in these wars. What's the freaking point of the king then? And yeah when I grant viceroyalty to a particular person. I mean for that person to have it and if someone tries to take some of it away I should be able to intervene.

I pretty much started playing this game with Conclave on. Don't really see the problem with this, I *really like* the fact that running a large realm can be tricky, especially if you insist on a very perfectionist, control-freaky view. It's going to be complicated, messy and illogical.... as medieval politics were!

I welcome a challenge and I like hard games but like I said multiple times all the exclusion of "no vassal wars" does is making the game annoying.

Why take away something that was in the game before for years?

 

[CannotresistDLC]

I don't know if this will be fixed in the future by the devs but I have to agree that I find it annoying. Maybe not as annoying as you seem to, but internecine war that the ruler can never interfere with drives me nuts. I also find it annoying that I cannot directly support a vassal's wars outside of my realm. Perhaps these things offer problems with the Threat mechanic and potentially make it more difficult to rise from within an AI realm but they can sometimes make for silly situations. A vassal decides to make war against my 2nd cousin that I gave a title to 6 months ago... and the Emperor can only twiddle his thumbs and watch what happens?

 

[Mike Louis]

Whenever my vassals started fighting among themselves I always look the other way since their military power will be weakened in comparison in mine. Same deal with vassals conquering foreign territory on their own as long as I get my taxes and soldiers from them with the added bonus of my foreign enemies (Abbasids, Byzantines, and Scythians) being weakened without me breaking truces or becoming the target of coalitions. Busying giddy vassal minds with intervassal feuds and foreign quarrels is one of the effective methods I use to keep my vassals in line and onside.

 

[Naughtius Maximus]

Don't understand why you would invite so much hate towards you (max CA near impossible to vote for when large,) with nothing to deplete their armies.

That's like three or four civil wars every generation to get enough "suppressed revolt" opinion boosts.

I mean you certainly can petition for it.

 

[Robert II]

...How are they in a shabby state? The only real issue I've seen with the ERE in Conclave is with the "oust from power" wars against a viceroyal king not being invalidated when he dies.

Don't think I've seen the ERE stay non elective in any of my games.

 

[SigurdStormhand]

I think it was changed because the Devs found the previous situation frustrating, as you have to force down CA to allow internal wars via faction, then raise it once you become top liege.

the King's Peace (that's what it's actually called in the game files) was clearly designed to help model the centralisation of the realm though, the shift from a weak to a strong central Crown. Notably, Crown Authority was originally called "Centralisation Law" in the game files too.

The current situation is frustrating as you basically have to turn Conclave off if you want to play certain realms in a way that's vaguely similar to history - England and the Byzantine Empire, for example.

 

[Naughtius Maximus]

Don't think I've seen the ERE stay non elective in any of my games.

Do you mean for Conclave or non Conclave? And what is your MTTH?

Without Conclave most Christian Kings or Emperors succumb to Elective within twenty years, simply because vassals have nothing else to agreeably faction for. There's crown authority....except everyone starts with low. And there's Independence, except only certain vassals can faction for that.

With Conclave this usually gets delayed for hundreds of years as Council War declaration places a huge block on factioning, and when they do faction it's generally for more council power. I've played maybe 7 campaigns in Charlemagne and 300 years in only a few Christian kings have switched to elective. Most are still gavelkind.

 

[Robert II]

Do you mean for Conclave or non Conclave? And what is your MTTH?

Without Conclave most Christian Kings or Emperors succumb to Elective within twenty years, simply because vassals have nothing else to agreeably faction for. There's crown authority....except everyone starts with low. And there's Independence, except only certain vassals can faction for that.

With Conclave this usually gets delayed for hundreds of years as Council War declaration places a huge block on factioning, and when they do faction it's generally for more council power. I've played maybe 7 campaigns in Charlemagne and 300 years in only a few Christian kings have switched to elective. Most are still gavelkind.

With conclave. Pretty much every christian realm in my games will go elective well within the first century of play. And will most likely remain elective as to change out of elective you need to neuter the council and have positive opinion something the ai can't do as it is terrible at ck2.