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thevmag

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The issue is applied to every single vassal indiscriminately. Some of your points are valid, but not for every situation. We are dealing with a bug, something not intentional. It needs to be reported.
Confirmation bias and nothing more. Some vassals are willing to weaken themselves with a non-aggression pact, most are too clever to.

Again, avoiding title revocation is the weaker of the prizes, especially when getting tyranny penalties for unlawful revocation applies in most cases. There is no way you're revoking indiscriminately to the point where every vassal feels vulnerable.
 
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thevmag

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I think my game is broken. I'm an emperor, yet my viceroy vassal is perfectly willing to betroth himself to my daughter. I was under the impression that marriages are simply broken and vassals will never marry your close kin due to some strange and unforeseen bug, and not that AI vassals are weighing the risks and rewards of being tied to a non-aggression pact and crippled from taking part in all action against you. Should I file a bug report?


Also, someone please explain to me how protection against title revocation - when there is already a very strict limit on when you're allowed to do that, and tyrannical penalties against you that guarantee everyone factionalizing against you should you do it anyways - is obviously the smarter choice than being free to faction against your liege and take part in direct action against him in rebellion, pushing demands and claimants, etc?
 

thevmag

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Sorry for the double post, but I think my game is seriously broken, now. I've found another broken vassal, this time a duke directly under his emperor, willing to betroth himself to my daughter. This guy hates me, too, having been a major player in factions, who I've gone to war with in the past and revoked titles from, holds claim on several of his neighbours, and holds a substantial percent of the realm's levies.

And yet he want's my daughter's 14-years-from-now booty. Is this WAD? :(
 

thevmag

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Distantly related, though. These aren't close kin: no easy non-aggressive pacts and, apart from dynasty name and a little inbreeding, functionally identical to random vassals.
 

thevmag

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Plot. I thought I made this clear?
Yes, you made it clear how that's pathetically little compared to the freedom of being able to openly revolt, factionalize, push claims and demands... You're not going to get plots on every duchy and county in the realm. Those are complete nonissues.

As far as "Oh no, vassals will never marry your daughters/sisters!" and "Whatever, you. They're only marrying you because incest":

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You know what the unifying trend in all this is? It doesn't matter if they're related to you or not, you need to be hot enough Shahanshah to overcome their desires for better alliances/pacts.

Any number of you might think that astronomically rare intrigue title revocation protection is more important than factions, claimant pushing, ruler ousting, law forcing, etc. I disagree, and it certainly makes sense that in-game vassals will disagree on that, too.

Whether or not they're taking the most efficient route to achieve their goals is irrelevant, and not even we can agree on that or even choose to take the known best options. The fact is: AI vassals can and will marry your close kin, whether they're your relatives or not, based entirely upon how many of those green plus marks you can get to outweigh those red minuses.

You really want to make that non-aggression pact and marry that vassal? Give him money, give him a council position if you must. Issue honourary titles. Have them raise your kids. Improve their holdings. Make sure the person you want married has good enough skills to be distracted. If somehow, they still don't want that marriage? That's just how it is. The same "Desires better alliance" that has been halting our machinations since Day 1, just with a new name.
 
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Asiak

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I noticed this with dismay too.

The use of children to bind vassals to you with NAPs wasn't by any means an exploit, nor was it overpowered. It added a very strategic layer to the game where really your children were already missiles. Missiles to be used carefully and with planning. To be used externally for claims and expansion or alliances, and now internally to maintain realm peace.

These missiles were not infinite, not even with seduction focus especially not now.

From a vassal standpoint even if there is no overt risk of title revocation(like you're a Zoroastrian under the Caliph) locking yourself out of factions for a bit can still be worth it. The opinion with your liege, the fact that you're marrying into the royal line. Protection from what could be one of your greatest threats, and a claim on his throne, the prestige from the marriage aside?

The notion that vassals would prefer a better NAP then a NAP with a liege in certain situations is reasonable.
The notion that vassals would so uniformly and arbitrarily grossly undervalue a liege's NAP isn't.

But I don't think this is about what the AI should and shouldn't look for.

This is about them introducing added challenges to the game in Conclave, and with those challenges added tools to deal with them.

Only to see us using those tools, and proceeding to take them away.

There is no reason why so many vassals would so generally say no to a betrothal / marriage / NAP with their liege in this time period.

Do the developers of this game seriously think that the use of inter realm NAPs between Conclave and Reaper was imbalanced towards the player? That vassals being open to liege NAPs made it too easy to maintain inter realm peace?

Yes this is an assumption on my part that this is why it was introduced. And if I'm wrong you have my apologies, but if I'm right.

This game needs a challenge and it is a challenge. But if you are going to stand there and tell me that I should be able to manage this realm and its vassals with the tools given to me, with half of them saying no to NAPs I am going to cry bull****.

Yea what tools are those?

Honorary titles for 5 whole opinion and everyone only gets one? (Because of course that was medieval law that everyone only got one honorary title.)
Gifts, which have admittedly been buffed?
Council seats for everyone important?
Make sure everyone is de-jure where they should be?
Land grants and feeding? Land grants can hardly be counted among the player's permanent tools for vassal appeasement when land isn't always had to be given.
Plop the chancellor down for some relations, the spymaster down for some scheming? (Councilor actions have been more rapid, we still aren't sure if this is intended or bugged)

And after that what is there, oh right the children, the most precious resources to be had in the world. The resource on which all of your plans and livelihood depend upon.

Send the younger ones off to be educated by the powerful duke?
Risk your future and send the heir himself off?

There are of course other strategies, I always try and educate vassal children under me, or the future me for the mentor bonus.

But the reality is that all of these tools combined aren't enough.

NAPs did not need to be nerfed and the player did not need to be leashed. Especially not using the ancient opaque +++++ ------- system that the player base hates and is eternally perplexed by.

With half the realm refusing NAPs the player does not have enough tools to actually manage the realm and play the game.
 
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Noxatrox

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That's just how it is. The same "Desires better alliance" that has been halting our machinations since Day 1, just with a new name.

While I definitely understand your point, I don't think this is a good gameplay feature if it is working as designed. To me, this is less like "desires better alliance" and more like "political concerns". It just seems really arbitrary who will accept the marriage and who will not.

It's honestly one of the only things that I actually dislike about this new patch. I'm playing a game as Erik the Heathen and have successfully become the king of Sweden. I also happen to have 6 daughters who I can't marry to anyone Norse since I'm the only Norse realm in the world. Normally, I would just marry them to my vassals for the opinion boost now I can't even do that.
 
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Venom Crusader

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Any number of you might think that astronomically rare intrigue title revocation protection is more important than factions, claimant pushing, ruler ousting, law forcing, etc. I disagree, and it certainly makes sense that in-game vassals will disagree on that, too.

You're acting like the purpose of the game is only to have the AI pursuing optimal ways of taking the player down, rather than being a simulation of feudal politics.


I would totally be fine with ambitious vassals having these inherent reasons to why they don't want a NAP with their liege, but why wouldn't a content or humble vassal NOT be perfectly fine with just being on good terms with their liege and marry into their dynasty?

It makes absolutely zero sense that every single noble present in the game is acting like warring or overthrowing their liege should be their ultimate goal in life to the point of where you have to bend backwards to make your family tree look desirable. It doesn't make sense from a historical perspective, and it doesn't make sense from a game balance perspective.
 
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thevmag

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You're acting like the purpose of the game is only to have the AI pursuing optimal ways of taking the player down...
That's precisely what I'm arguing against: that not only is "but they're depriving themselves of revocation protection" weaker than "but they're holding onto their right to fight their boss", but that efficient choices alone aren't always going to be made, by the player or an AI trying to adequately mimic motivations and ambitions.

Hence, my going to lengths to demonstrate how, while vassals might be hesitant to marry your close kin, they Can be motivated to. They've all got what passes for different ambitions and motivations, and what blocks you off from marrying some vassals won't block you off from others.
 
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Venom Crusader

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That's precisely what I'm arguing against: that not only is "but they're depriving themselves of revocation protection" weaker than "but they're holding onto their right to fight their boss", but that efficient choices alone aren't always going to be made, by the player or an AI trying to adequately mimic motivations and ambitions.

Hence, my going to lengths to demonstrate how, while vassals might be hesitant to marry your close kin, they Can be motivated to. They've all got what passes for different ambitions and motivations, and what blocks you off from marrying some vassals won't block you off from others.

Right, but do we actually know what leads to the huge maluses to bethrotal? Is it trait or ambition bound?

I haven't tested on the game myself, but the thread made me think that nearly every powerful vassal inherently takes issue to marrying into the king's family.
 
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solidprice

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It is admittedly kinda silly not even non-ambitious vassals want to marry.

I could see a ambitious vassal not wanting to marry, but even content humble dosent want to? Idk, pretty weenie....


Best way around this for my casual self was to marry landless, than grant some land to said person.

Of course there is console.....
 
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