Vassals don't want to marry my daughters and sisters anymore.

[Llyw olaf]

I now have huge "Desires better non-aggression pact" penalty, I take it this is intentional?
I used to have the strategy of using any surplus daughters and sisters to intermarry with my realm's stronger vassals and thus keep them out of factions with our NAP's, now it's much, much harder to have them accept.

Did Paradox feel it counted as an exploit?
I like to think of it as they get a very prestigious marriage by becoming a part of their liege's family and I get a more stable realm, your son gets to marry a princess, so please stay out of any factions.

In fact, I'm finding general marriages to be a little bit harder due to "political concerns", any one else, or am I just unlucky?
Lastly, one thing I would like to see being added is some opinion boosts for NAP's and Alliances, maybe +10 for NAP's and +15 or +20 for a full alliance, seems strange there's no modifier for these.

 

[Hootieleece]

I just checked using my continued from 2.5.2 game. I am a Karling King of France (and I Roleplay my characters traits) and I found the same sorts of problems as your describing.

Screenshots:


and I found another problem NAP's don't seem to affect the vassals in their intrarealm wars.



If that is the case why wouldn't they want to marry a king's daughter.

Also when using the Bride/Groom finder I noticed that NO heirs or heiresses from my Kingdom showed up on the list. Possibly because of the desires better NAP modifier.

Also I remember being able to find such but only when the King himself is unmarried........

So probably PI closed an "exploit" even though I don't think it is.

 

[Llyw olaf]

Interesting, both of my current campaigns are also continued saves, maybe that's the issue? I will start a fresh one and see if it has any noticeable differences.

 

[Sernista]

@Hootieleece - The reason they want a better NAP than their liege, and yet are willing to get NAPs with fellow vassals, is very simple. As their liege, you're useless to them in the battles they expect to face. If they get into war with another vassal, you can't intervene at all, where a fellow vassal can back them up. Similarly, they have no need to worry about you declaring war on them, where any non-NAP vassal of similar size is a potential threat. And against outside threats? You'll back them anyway, as their liege. It's a no brainer.

 

[Elenhil]

@Hootieleece - The reason they want a better NAP than their liege, and yet are willing to get NAPs with fellow vassals, is very simple. As their liege, you're useless to them in the battles they expect to face. If they get into war with another vassal, you can't intervene at all, where a fellow vassal can back them up. Similarly, they have no need to worry about you declaring war on them, where any non-NAP vassal of similar size is a potential threat. And against outside threats? You'll back them anyway, as their liege. It's a no brainer.

I rather thought that historically most vassals would have killed for a chance of becoming the King's in-laws. If NAPs skew the 'logic' of character behaviour to such an extent that is a great shame.

 

[Ultima_Ratio]

@Hootieleece - The reason they want a better NAP than their liege, and yet are willing to get NAPs with fellow vassals, is very simple. As their liege, you're useless to them in the battles they expect to face. If they get into war with another vassal, you can't intervene at all, where a fellow vassal can back them up. Similarly, they have no need to worry about you declaring war on them, where any non-NAP vassal of similar size is a potential threat. And against outside threats? You'll back them anyway, as their liege. It's a no brainer.

That's rubbish. A non-aggression pact with the liege makes a vassal immune to title revocations which is a lot more valuable than a pact with another vassal. Also gives a chance for claims on the liege's titles.

 

[RagingJaws]

Huh. Dumb addition.

Clearly, Stalinist purges and constant tedious rebellion are the only accepted forms of vassal management. It was nice to have the option to marry your dynasty into a vassals, for either claims (in realm or out of realm) or for protection.

 

[Venom Crusader]

If true, that's a terrible addition. I actually thought marrying vassals was a pretty clever solution for realm stability.

 

[Dahoota]

Huh. If this is a new addition, the AI should be seeking them out more IMO, not less - they can't join factions but their liege also can't revoke their titles.

 

[Azarias59]

@Hootieleece - The reason they want a better NAP than their liege, and yet are willing to get NAPs with fellow vassals, is very simple. As their liege, you're useless to them in the battles they expect to face. If they get into war with another vassal, you can't intervene at all, where a fellow vassal can back them up. Similarly, they have no need to worry about you declaring war on them, where any non-NAP vassal of similar size is a potential threat. And against outside threats? You'll back them anyway, as their liege. It's a no brainer.

This would be true... except the feudal vassal AI *never* forms alliances. Plus having an NAP with your liege prevents him from revoking your titles.

 

[Hootieleece]

@Sernista :What I was also showing was that the NAPS formed by the Vassals didn't deter them from warring each other over claims in the second picture.

So why not marry your Liege? Since others have said it makes you invulnerable to title revocation.

Also the AI is incredibly adept at creating "SuperDuke" vassals

Also Kingdom is almost always in a state of Anarchy since enforcing Peace comes at such a high price (-40 relations hit for 30 years) and lasts less than a truce timer.

 

[infernalbargain]

That's rubbish. A non-aggression pact with the liege makes a vassal immune to title revocations which is a lot more valuable than a pact with another vassal. Also gives a chance for claims on the liege's titles.

They do lose the ability to join / create factions by having a NAP with liege.

 

[thevmag]

@Hootieleece - The reason they want a better NAP than their liege, and yet are willing to get NAPs with fellow vassals, is very simple. As their liege, you're useless to them in the battles they expect to face. If they get into war with another vassal, you can't intervene at all, where a fellow vassal can back them up.

That's rubbish. A non-aggression pact with the liege makes a vassal immune to title revocations which is a lot more valuable than a pact with another vassal. Also gives a chance for claims on the liege's titles.

Gonna have to side with Sernista on this one. Big two reasons I can understand why my vassals don't want to marry my daughters:
1) By joining into a non-aggression pact with me, they are incapable of advancing forward. They will be unable to declare war on me, seek my titles, and combat me for their benefit. No vassal with ambitions beyond their prescribed station would agree to be crippled so harshly.
2) Non-aggression treaties prevent them from factionalizing. Just found that out, and loving that I have an easy "no factions" button with my sons and brothers. Distant kin don't have that advantage, and there is no way they're willing to give up the right to force empowered councils, preferential elections, push claimants, or generally depose or weaken their ruler.

At this point, if my vassal wants to marry my daughter, I get suspicious that she's after their claims and he might be getting big enough to push their child's.

 

[Azarias59]

In my most recent game:

When I was a King, they were totally fine with marrying into my family. But now that I'm an Emperor, not a single one of my vassals will even consider my marriage offers. I'm thinking that we have a gamebreaking bug to report here.

 

[LordDamien]

In my most recent game:

When I was a King, they were totally fine with marrying into my family. But now that I'm an Emperor, not a single one of my vassals will even consider my marriage offers. I'm thinking that we have a gamebreaking bug to report here.

Well that might because they know you cant help them if they want to fight a internal war. Or they want the ability to be in a faction and by marrying into your family they cant. In that case the AI might be a bit smarter with this DLC. But who knows really I am just guessing

Still Its quite frustrating when you cant marry fellow dukes because they all want there daughters to marry Materlintnal even if said daughter is not in line to Inherit

 

[Admiral Fischer]

So apparently they don't want to get the claim on the Crown, and better remain in vassal forever. OK.

 

[RagingJaws]

Well that might because they know you cant help them if they want to fight a internal war. Or they want the ability to be in a faction and by marrying into your family they cant. In that case the AI is a lot smarter now than before this DLC.

Still Its quite frustrating when you cant marry fellow dukes because they all want there daughters to marry Materlintnal even if said daughter is not in line to Inherit

It's not that the AI is smarter. They simply don't value inheriting claims properly. It's all short sighted, heavily weighted towards keeping the option of war open with their liege. So, as I mentioned earlier, player choices have been limited again to warfare being the only real form of vassal management. Whatever. It's less thinking for me to do when playing a feudal.

For the part about dukes and their daughters, get enough dynastic prestige and they'll marry. Unless that has been nerfed as well.

 

[thevmag]

It's a different kind of warfare, I find. If you're at the point where you're up in arms against your vassals, one of two things have happened: by force of aggressive AI or player negligence you have been forced into a position where avoiding combat is impossible, or you want them to fight you for political advantages after the war.

Right now, I'm only a couple of centuries into the game and have a nice empire going and borders with a few potential allies and many of nice, fat targets. I could spend the rest of the next century in a near-constant state of war, conquering as I bloat. Instead, the war I'm playing is politics: careful management of where I send my chancellor for once, waiting for key people to die to hand out their titles to gracious wastrels, maybe giving some leeway to keep things tense-but-peaceful for the next 36 months...

I could potentially just non-aggression pact everyone, but then my vassals would have zero power to contest me. They'd just be happy little tax-payers, and they know it. The chance to avoid title revocation is too pathetic a prize for them, and getting an empire-level claim means nothing if all they can hold is 3 counties and their duchy. They want to be able to gather forces behind my back, to cannibalize my vassals from within until either unity or conquest will force me to accept their demands. Why make non-aggression pacts and hope your ambitious Player throws you a bone, when you can unite and take from him by force?

Considering the annoying power that factioning vassals and empowered councils can wield, I'd say they have the right idea.

 

[Admiral Fischer]

Why make non-aggression pacts and hope your ambitious Player throws you a bone, when you can unite and take from him by force?

To avoid all these revoke plots from the Player and stay safe from his hands while actively expanding within the realm, of course.

Title revocation by the liege is the one single most biggest threat to an AI vassal and if AI don't know it then it's a problem.

 

[Azarias59]

It's a different kind of warfare, I find. If you're at the point where you're up in arms against your vassals, one of two things have happened: by force of aggressive AI or player negligence you have been forced into a position where avoiding combat is impossible, or you want them to fight you for political advantages after the war.

Right now, I'm only a couple of centuries into the game and have a nice empire going and borders with a few potential allies and many of nice, fat targets. I could spend the rest of the next century in a near-constant state of war, conquering as I bloat. Instead, the war I'm playing is politics: careful management of where I send my chancellor for once, waiting for key people to die to hand out their titles to gracious wastrels, maybe giving some leeway to keep things tense-but-peaceful for the next 36 months...

I could potentially just non-aggression pact everyone, but then my vassals would have zero power to contest me. They'd just be happy little tax-payers, and they know it. The chance to avoid title revocation is too pathetic a prize for them, and getting an empire-level claim means nothing if all they can hold is 3 counties and their duchy. They want to be able to gather forces behind my back, to cannibalize my vassals from within until either unity or conquest will force me to accept their demands. Why make non-aggression pacts and hope your ambitious Player throws you a bone, when you can unite and take from him by force?

Considering the annoying power that factioning vassals and empowered councils can wield, I'd say they have the right idea.

The issue is applied to every single vassal indiscriminately. Some of your points are valid, but not for every situation. We are dealing with a bug, something not intentional. It needs to be reported.