Vassals are too docile

[Novacat]

Vassals do rebel actually, you should talk with Novacat about this.

They do, but it is almost impossible to happen with normal vassal feed strategies, partly due to the short amount of time you keep vassals, partly due to vassal feed vassals rarely growing large (small vassals are less likely to rebel), partly due to the return core relations bonus (used in vassal feeding) often boosting opinion to +200 for a long stretch of time. Its basically a mechanic to punish people who try to build multi-country (one overlord and 3-4 vassals) empires. All hail the monolithic, one-color blob.

 

[mgoetze]

Only problem with that is, when doesn't vassalization end with annexation (or at least have it as the ultimate plan of the mother country)?

When you're playing as a non-westernizing horde and want to keep some vassals with decent units around, perhaps even to build those units yourself on non-expiring cores of theirs.

 

[Novacat]

When you're playing as a non-westernizing horde and want to keep some vassals with decent units around, perhaps even to build those units yourself on non-expiring cores of theirs.

Could just reduce them to OPMs than build their units.

 

[echolot]

The Golden Horde if it sets up the Novgordians and Muscovites as vassals again will somehow never face revolt again. This is... wrong... Vassals need events to rebel. Too many of us rely on Vassals.

Absolutely! I always felt that was so silly in Vanilla that vassals are devoted to you no matter what. That was the reason why we changed it in Veritas.

 

[unmerged(65679)]

I would also agree that vassals are far too docile in EU4. Having said that the alternative may not be preferable to what we have currently. I mean from reading the informative post on the 1st page about the conditions upon which rebellion might happen it seems those are ridiculously easy to overcome.
Vassalize nation and within say 1-2 years you've got them at +200 relations and ti said "they will never rebel" so.....seems fairly easy.

It also got me thinking in my 1.5 game as Byzantium. I only own the Greek side of the straits +Serbia+Bosnia+Wallachia and I've vassalized the Ottomans in order to return their cores on Anatolia side. Now the ottomans are quite comparable in strength to me and have always had better mil and ideas and NI's etc. I started to worry perhaps I better annex them now otherwise they might rebel.
Seems when I returned their cores from mamluks nope.....just makes them love being a subject even more.

Seems a tad silly.

 

[kuolema]

As things stand now the game is to avoid a vassal rebelling in the first place by playing the relations game. I guess I'm ok with this. But fighting rebelling vassals is not part of the challenge - if a vassal you're annexing rebels you've already lost. It can be an OPM with 0 troops and you can send in your megastack to assault instantly and end the war in a month, but you have to restart the annexation timer. That's about as fun as if they introduced random events that regress your tech by one level or cancel the last alliance you formed and wipe your improved relations with that country.

If vassals could rebel at any time it would be necessary to freeze the annexation timer, much like coring timers are frozen if you go to war with someone who holds a core in that province. Maybe you even need warscore to demand that the annexation continues or something like that. And maybe if the vassal gets enough warscore they can cancel the annexation, if they get more warscore they can declare independence. Or whatever implementation works, but something would be necessary.

I guess I'm opposed to any quick change that makes vassals more aggressive, because there WILL be unintended consequences and then it'll get "tweaked" every single patch. But I would gladly welcome a well planned revamp of the system that makes them more aggressive and a greater challenge overall.

As a side note, has anyone experienced whether or not royal marriages help prevent rebelling? Daimyos could always rebel since vanilla because they're daimyos, and I always solved that by marrying them. I assume the same works for regular vassals now and I have not had any problems, but I haven't played enough to know for sure. What I have noticed in 1.5 however, is that in both games I have played to the point of becoming shogunate/becoming independent daimyo, my daimyo vassals are ALWAYS aggressive attitude, even after sitting at +200 relations and when I hold no land with their cores. And that stops me from marrying them even though I used to be able to (or maybe as shogunate I still can, I forget). The only options are to waste diplomat time by keeping them always at +200 or to risk it.

 

[mgoetze]

As things stand now the game is to avoid a vassal rebelling in the first place by playing the relations game.

I must be doing something wrong then, I've had vassals at negative relations for a decade with no ill consequences.

 

[kuolema]

I must be doing something wrong then, I've had vassals at negative relations for a decade with no ill consequences.

Well I mean the supposed challenge. I've never had any vassals aside from daimyo rebel either. I assumed it was because I was keeping one of the conditions that stops them from rebelling (because I really wanted to avoid it), although I haven't experienced 1.5 enough to tell. And I assumed the feature was working as intended because it does for daimyo, but I dunno maybe its not for other nations. Let me modify what I said before. If indeed they don't rebel enough now I'm fine with them becoming more aggressive, but you have to be able to play the relations game and be able to avoid them rebelling. Otherwise the annexation timer needs to be taken into consideration. Really its just that part which is my concern.

Edit: Actually I should point out when I say they rebel, its ALWAYS when annexation is nearing completion. I can't really comment on holding vassals long term.

 

[Novacat]

I must be doing something wrong then, I've had vassals at negative relations for a decade with no ill consequences.

It takes a -long- time for them to switch to hostile. As said, its not an issue at all unless you keep vassals around for hundreds of years.

 

[AnguyTheArcher]

There should be liberty desire for vassals, like for colonies. And vassals should be more active, they should basically act like before annexation, but they would need overlords permission for war and other important actions. That would create an interesting dilemma for overlord - allow vassal to attack and destroy relations with some neural or friendly target country, or refuse and damage relations with vassal and increase his liberty desire...
Or trade - if you compete with your vassal he might ask you to move to other trade zone, if you refuse relation hit...
Basically if vassal or PU profits from your relationship he wouldn't be rebellious.

 

[Novacat]

I like the idea of liberty desire for vassals, and being able to adjust the amount of tax you get from vassals either up or down...

Infact, the most amusing thing about Colonial Nations is that they are more docile than vassals. They physically cannot rebel unless they hit 50% liberty desire, and they wont hit 50% liberty desire unless you enact a lot of tarriffs on them.

 

[MiniaAr]

I like the idea of liberty desire for vassals, and being able to adjust the amount of tax you get from vassals either up or down...

Infact, the most amusing thing about Colonial Nations is that they are more docile than vassals. They physically cannot rebel unless they hit 50% liberty desire, and they wont hit 50% liberty desire unless you enact a lot of tarriffs on them.

That's a surprising change of your previous position (no rebellion of vassals whatsoever), and a change I agree with.

 

[Great One]

There are a lot of good ideas in this thread. I personally like the idea that a vassal can rebel if they get big enough and dislike their overlord enough. Being able to garner support for their independence makes this a viable option as well.

I also like the idea someone posted about being able to annex a country at 100% warscore and not be limited by size. I think this could work if a mechanic similar to OE were applied to a vassal. Let's say that the current limit represents 0 OE (or whatever it would be called for a large vassal...perhaps Vassal Over Extension or VOE) so that if you annex a 3-5 province country which you could also annex in the war, the status quo remains as it is now. Now let's imagine that you annex a vassal 2x that size. This could result in this new VOE mechanic creating a desire for independence which would scale with the size of the vassal. The mechanic could also be applied to vassal feeding. Imaging that you are warring with a Denmark which has inherited all of Scandinavia and in the first war you release Sweden as a small vassal which is not over sized. In successive wars you feed Danish provinces to your Swedish vassal making Sweden bigger than it's original size, perhaps including all of Norway as well. This monster sized Sweden would gain additional VOW and eventually gather other countries to support independence...especially if the overlord doesn't send diplomats to improve relations periodically.

During the annexation process, there should be a higher chance of the vassal trying to break free.

Perhaps VOE and independence desire could also be overcome by spending monarch points (either MIL or DIP seem appropriate, perhaps MIL to reduce independence desire and DIP to reduce VOE or decrease the negative relations modifiers).

Go ahead and feed that vassal, but feed it and beware because it just might bite.

 

[Novacat]

That's a surprising change of your previous position (no rebellion of vassals whatsoever), and a change I agree with.

Well, colonial states wont ever rebel if you never raise the tarriff on them, so its pretty much 'no rebellion of vassals whatsoever' to me.

 

[mgoetze]

There are a lot of good ideas in this thread. I personally like the idea that a vassal can rebel if they get big enough and dislike their overlord enough. Being able to garner support for their independence makes this a viable option as well.

But they won't accept support for their independence unless they're hostile, and that happens basically never...

 

[witcher1701]

I actually like the game as it is right now. Historical nations sometimes relied on vassals too.

 

[Novacat]

I actually like the game as it is right now. Historical nations sometimes relied on vassals too.

Except its unbalanced when compared with directly owning the territory yourself. After all, why rely on vassals when you can own the territory, mass convert it all to the true faith, than at worst you deal with +2 revoltrisk for wrong culture group.

 

[MiniaAr]

Well, colonial states wont ever rebel if you never raise the tarriff on them, so its pretty much 'no rebellion of vassals whatsoever' to me.

So you're saying that your fears weren't justified after all?