Vassals and their refusal to bow

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Ryika

General
52 Badges
Apr 16, 2018
1.855
5.078
NEGOTIATE_AGREEMENT_RESOURCE_SPENDING_ACCEPTANCE_MAX_PENALTY = 100 # former value 1000
I only changed that one to 100, and I have to say... it makes managing vassals SO MUCH MORE FUN. You can actually propose things, and they'll accept, and then after the cooldown is gone, you can offer more-one sided deals, specializations and resource tithes... and slowly turn much of their power into yours.

There are still a few problems with it, but overall this is pretty much the gameplay I was hoping for.
 
  • 3Like
Reactions:

Arngrim

Private
30 Badges
Jun 7, 2017
17
21
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • BATTLETECH
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
Wouldn't that mean that every player would try to force the most severe conditions onto a vassal? Or maybe that wouldn't be so bad, because it would cripple your vassals and make them into unproductive ones, i don't know...

Also, my impression was they tried to establish a system were being specialized would be beneficial for a vassal too (to a degree at least), so it doesn't make sence if they refuse outright most of the time, right?

Well, the way it's set up atm, isn't that exactly what the players try to do anyway?
And I'd impose a loyalty penalty (on the other subjects) the more severe conditions the overlord is trying to force - but this way there is at least a way to force the issue instead of consoling everything - and if it was too easy, there wouldn't be any AI opponents, just vassals in waiting...
 

stigmund77

Sergeant
25 Badges
Mar 1, 2011
60
131
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Prison Architect
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
NEGOTIATE_AGREEMENT_RESOURCE_SPENDING_ACCEPTANCE_MAX_PENALTY = 100 definitely seems to fix most of the problems with the vassals. Its a shame the vassal mechanics were ruined on launch because of a variable that slipped passed the testers.
 

DeanTheDull

Colonel
Aug 21, 2021
1.034
2.365
Managing vassals right now is like training a dog, but you're tied up on the ground and gagged, and then the dog pees on you.

I honestly don't understand the though process behind the system.

Aside from the excellent imagery...

I haven't been able to really play the system, but one of the things that surprised me on reading about it was the vassal policy. Unlike some of the pre-release material, you CAN make vassal integration a starting profile of the system... if you adopt the harshest vassal default contract policy, for maximimum tribute.

Ergo, if I read it right, you can subjugate a vassal by force, integrate them (to steal all their ships/what not), and then release minor sectors.

I've also heard this is the best way to get a vassal to agree to a special vassal status, by trading away heavy tributes for the status change.


Which- if true- means that rather than fundamentally stop the 'vassal-integrate' system, vassal wars are still the best way to expand, and having integratable-vassals are the most profitable thing you can do in the time until integration.

Which was a major reversal of what I thought they were trying to go for, with a 'you must subsidize to build trust for them to accept an integration contract.'
 

Silens

Colonel
50 Badges
Nov 3, 2017
963
1.497
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • BATTLETECH
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Prison Architect
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Prison Architect: Psych Ward
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Island Bound
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Warlock 2: Wrath of the Nagas
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Age of Wonders III
Ergo, if I read it right, you can subjugate a vassal by force, integrate them (to steal all their ships/what not), and then release minor sectors.

Well, if they're too weak, they turn into a Protectorate the moment you (forcibly) vassalize them, even with oppressive subjugation war terms policy. And the standard Protectorate contract has no integration, no taxes and no option to turn the vassal into anything else than the Protectorate.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

PedroLuiz

Colonel
26 Badges
Nov 21, 2014
1.035
1.020
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
The whole warfare & combat system needs more depth and complexity and doom stacking needs to finally end.
I already proposed a suggestion about how i think the system needs to be changed here.
internal politics need to come first than military changes, specially since we have had those since 1.0 and it never works out
 
  • 2
Reactions:

DeanTheDull

Colonel
Aug 21, 2021
1.034
2.365
A few other things I've noticed while reading through this and the wiki on Subject Empires-



-Vassal types still exist.

Not a surprise to most, I'm sure, but I'm honestly surprised they kept it. I can kind-of see the role of protectorates as a forced subsidy case- you get influence for science subsidies and a tech bonus to them- but the subsidiary/tributary/vassal distinction adds a lot of restrictions that weren't really covered by the dev diaries. I honestly thought they'd be completely removed in general.

Going from the wiki-

Tributaries and Subsidiaries are locked out of most forms of negotiation unless made into special vassals. T/S must pay at LEAST 30% tribute, but can NOT be traded for subsidies (or tribute) in other levels.

-Tributaries are hard-locked from most contracts.

Nearly all the diplomacy options are locked from tributaries. So you can't leverage tribute for diplo-alignment or vice-versa.



-Integration is either guaranteed for free, or super-hard.

The Subjugation War Terms policy defines your initial diplomatic terms of agreement for subjects. The heaviest form includes the Integration clause, along with other overlord-favoring policies. This is a policy desired by the Authoritarian, Militarist, and Xenophobe factions.

(Xenophile, Egalitarian both want Benevolent, but only Xenophile is unhappy with Oppressive.)

However, propoposing the integration contract requires 275 influence. And has costs of -50 immediate loyalty, and -4 monthly loyalty.

Ergo- if you want to integrate someone, do it from the start.




-The difference between Restricted Voting and Limited Diplomacy isn't voting, but Federation/Community membership.

The two more 'restrictive' diplomacy options BOTH force the AI to abstain from voting (cannot vote independently), and do NOT let (or force) them to vote with the Overlord.

Instead, the difference is whether the AI will join the community/federation over the overlord. This was a request by some people on the forum. You can pay a loyalty penalty (if the AI succeedes) to prevent vassals from getting buffs.



-Expansion regulated is an influence tax to the Overlord for the early game.

This forces the a subject to pay another 50% of starbase influence to the Overlord. Of course, if you make a vassal when the galaxy is already filled, this does absolutely nothing. Again, you can pay loyalty penalties for the vassal to be weaker.




-Holding limits have an escalating loyalty penalty, and all contracts default at 1. 1 holding is -.4, 2 holdings is -1, 3 holdings is -2, 4 holdings is -4.

Any empire can get up to 2.5 influence from an Overlord Garrison (2) + aid agency (.5), the only two innate loyalty building buildings. This makes 3 the de facto max for 'stable' loyalty, but 1 building the best for maximizing loyalty (Overlord garrison + 3 armies) unless your special civic gives a +1 loyalty building. (Shared Burdens does for egalitarians... but loses ethic attraction for them, for some reason).

According to the wiki, the Overlord Surveilance resolution chain only buffs the holding limit by +1, not +2.


-Scholarium still as a % research rate building, up to 12% per building.

Marginally less busted if it renders all subjects into tributaries.



-The Ministry of Truth propagandists now provide +0.15 influence each, not +.5. So, together, .3, not 1, influence a vassal.
 

Silens

Colonel
50 Badges
Nov 3, 2017
963
1.497
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • BATTLETECH
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Prison Architect
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Prison Architect: Psych Ward
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Island Bound
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Warlock 2: Wrath of the Nagas
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Age of Wonders III

Doesn't exactly work, since the AI can just not accept the changes when not having enough influence to decline. They can simply wait for auto-decline.

Tested it out with a vassal of mine, drained his influence via console command, maxed out on mine and proposed something for 985 influence. The proposal just sat there, I checked to make sure, until it declined by default. Didn't cost the vassal one single influence to do it, as I checked again to make sure.
 
  • 3
Reactions:

Devanor

Professional casual gamer
52 Badges
Jun 24, 2017
1.762
276
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Prison Architect
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Deluxe edition
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Magicka 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Impire
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Sword of the Stars
My solution would be simple: A vassal simply can't refuse any changes. But if they dislike what you demand, they become disloyal and loose opinion. Overall the acceptance for taxes on resources should be much higher. At least there is a reason why they are my vassal and i'm not theirs.
I'd like to see something like this, because currently negotions go like this for me:

"I want you to become a prospector, in ex-"
"no"
"-change I'll... what?"
"I said no"
"Why? You like me, you have absolute loyalty, and I'm giving you more benefits!"
"No."

*I* am the Overlord here, why can't I leverage that?!
 
  • 2
Reactions: