Vassal with several lieges

[Duzgun]

The way CK3 is designed, one can only have one liege at a time.

In real life, there are multiple examples where a duke or count had part of his lands in a kingdom and another part in another kingdom, having therefore formally 2 lieges at a time.

This was the case for the Counts of Toulouse (duke of Toulouse in game), whose lands were part of France in the west and of the HRE in the east (marquisate of Provence).
See the situation in 1180 for example (red line is the official limit of french kingdom) :

This situation is impossible in game and leads to marquisate of Provence being simply non existent.
It did have a historical importance though, like during the albigensian crusade, as Raimond VII could start his reconquest from the marquisate of Provence.

It would be nice to have this mecanism in game for more realism...

 

[Tuo]

Yes, this has been discussed several times, and no, it's not feasible with the setup of the game.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

The way CK3 is designed, one can only have one liege at a time.

In real life, there are multiple examples where a duke or count had part of his lands in a kingdom and another part in another kingdom, having therefore formally 2 lieges at a time.

This was the case for the Counts of Toulouse (duke of Toulouse in game), whose lands were part of France in the west and of the HRE in the east (marquisate of Provence).
See the situation in 1180 for example (red line is the official limit of french kingdom) :

View attachment 758956

This situation is impossible in game and leads to marquisate of Provence being simply non existent.
It did have a historical importance though, like during the albigensian crusade, as Raimond VII could start his reconquest from the marquisate of Provence.

It would be nice to have this mecanism in game for more realism...

It'd be nice, but it'd also be a nightmare to code for.

If I'm the Duke of Normandy and King of England, do you declare war on me, or on my liege, the King of France?

What if I'm the Duke of Normandy and King of England, and the King of France is also the Duke of Kent, such that we're simultaneously vassal and liege to each other? Who do you formally declare war on, and thus whose allies are invited to the party?

 

[Duzgun]

I'm not sure that this is the same case as I was pointing but yes it is complex, the vassal/liege relations were complex at that time, much more than they are in game.
It would just be nice to try and model this complexity in game...

 

[Tuo]

I'm not sure that this is the same case as I was pointing but yes it is complex, the vassal/liege relations were complex at that time, much more than they are in game.
It would just be nice to try and model this complexity in game...

If something is to be modeled in the game, it has to be modeled in every possible permutation that might crop up in the game - a vague idea of it being more realistic doesn't translate to it being realistic to implement.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

I'm not sure that this is the same case as I was pointing but yes it is complex, the vassal/liege relations were complex at that time, much more than they are in game.
It would just be nice to try and model this complexity in game...

Whatever the solution is has to account for that sort of case (especially as the King of England/Duke of Normandy thing **will** be prominent).

And for the specific example of the Counts of Toulouse there - who do you declare war on to take his stuff? The King of France or the HREmperor?

 

[Duzgun]

If something is to be modeled in the game, it has to be modeled in every possible permutation that might crop up in the game - a vague idea of it being more realistic doesn't translate to it being realistic to implement.

Well in the initial case I brought up, we can imagine paying levies and gold to each liege, proportionnally to how much comes from each kingdom/empire.
And if a specific county is attacked, it is easy to know which liege is to react...

 

[Duzgun]

And for the specific example of the Counts of Toulouse there - who do you declare war on to take his stuff? The King of France or the HREmperor?

If you want Marquisate of Provence, you will attack HRE.
If you want Quercy (for example), you will attack France.

Though IRL, there is little chance the liege would have defended these lands unless the Count of Toulouse asked him for help. So maybe the way lands are claimed/defended would need a bigger thought ?

 

[Tuo]

Well in the initial case I brought up, we can imagine paying levies and gold to each liege, proportionnally to how much comes from each kingdom/empire.
And if a specific county is attacked, it is easy to know which liege is to react...

And if it's not a specific county? What if it's a war that isn't targeting a title but the character? What if one of the lieges wants to revoke a title? What if one of the lieges wants full control of the vassal, do they declare war on the other liege to replace them as the liege for the other parts of the vassal's realm, and what kind of CB is used? Can the vassal use troops from the part of their realm that is in the realm of one liege in an internal war against the other liege? What if the crown authority of one liege allows external wars, but the crown authority of the other doesn't?

 

[Duzgun]

And if it's not a specific county? What if it's a war that isn't targeting a title but the character? What if one of the lieges wants to revoke a title? What if one of the lieges wants full control of the vassal, do they declare war on the other liege to replace them as the liege for the other parts of the vassal's realm, and what kind of CB is used? Can the vassal use troops from the part of their realm that is in the realm of one liege in an internal war against the other liege? What if the crown authority of one liege allows external wars, but the crown authority of the other doesn't?

Well this is something that happened historically, as I said in my first post, organizing reconquest against France from HRE part :

It did have a historical importance though, like during the albigensian crusade, as Raimond VII could start his reconquest from the marquisate of Provence.

Of course I am only saying it would be nice to have this mecanism in game for more realism. I can understand PI can have other priorities to model in game.

 

[Tuo]

Well this is something that happened historically, as I said in my first post, organizing reconquest against France from HRE part :


Of course I am only saying it would be nice to have this mecanism in game for more realism. I can understand PI can have other priorities to model in game.

But you haven't described a mechanic or a feature - you've only described what you would like to happen in a very specific situation. That's not a mechanic, that's an outcome - and you haven't proposed a mechanic that could produce that outcome. Won't have much of a conversation without that.

 

[InsidiousMage]

What if it's a war that isn't targeting a title but the character?

Considering the fact that you can't declare war against someone's vassal this problem is kind of self-solving. Unless I'm missing something, the only wars that target a person are subjugation/forced vassilization and excommunication wars which you can't declare against another rulers vassal already. Unless a new CB is added this shouldn't be a problem.

What if one of the lieges wants to revoke a title?

Can only revoke titles that are apart of their de jure territory. If the vassal owns territory outside of their lieges de jure territory then those titles can only revoked by their "primary" liege, which could be determined by where their capital is located or which liege was their first liege.

What if one of the lieges wants full control of the vassal, do they declare war on the other liege to replace them as the liege for the other parts of the vassal's realm, and what kind of CB is used?

Sure, why not. Just add a new CB and put some decent restrictions on it. Using the above example, only France could go to war against the HRE since the majority of the count's territory is part of France. Alternately they could go to war with the other to gain control of the vassal's territory that is part of their de jure realm.

Can the vassal use troops from the part of their realm that is in the realm of one liege in an internal war against the other liege?

Sure, they are their troops and would have full access to them in an external war anyway and there would be no reason to change that for an internal war.

What if the crown authority of one liege allows external wars, but the crown authority of the other doesn't?

They could be allowed to go to war if any of the lieges allows external wars and their new territory is consider part of the lower authority liege's realm for obligation purposes or they could be bound by the laws of the liege whose territory their capital is in. If their capital is outside the de jure territory then their first liege is whose laws they have to follow.

 

[Duzgun]

But you haven't described a mechanic or a feature - you've only described what you would like to happen in a very specific situation. That's not a mechanic, that's an outcome - and you haven't proposed a mechanic that could produce that outcome. Won't have much of a conversation without that.

I wasn't aiming at describing a new mechanic or feature, I think the game designers have their own views on how they want things done. I understand you really don't like the idea, so there is not much conversation to have no…
I think InsidiousMage's answer shows you can quite easily figure out ways to model that though.

 

[Tuo]

They could be allowed to go to war if any of the lieges allows external wars and their new territory is consider part of the lower authority liege's realm for obligation purposes or they could be bound by the laws of the liege whose territory their capital is in. If their capital is outside the de jure territory then their first liege is whose laws they have to follow.

And if both lieges have the same authority, and the vassal conquers land that is not de-jure either liege's realm, who gets the tax and levies from that land? Does the vassal rule that land as effectively independent, or vassal to a third realm? What if a vassal holds lands within the liege's realm and beyond the liege's de-jure land, is that land beyond those borders still part of the liege's realm? What exactly dictates when a vassal should have multiple lieges? Does a vassal become independent from a liege on losing all titles that were counted as part of that liege's realm, even if the vassal still holds land elsewhere? If a duke controls lands between two kingdoms, and one kingdom declares a claim war on that duchy, how is the vassalage assigned? If a vassal can be vassal to multiple lieges, can a vassal be independent and vassal at the same time, and how does that interact with war targets? Can a vassal declare a war for partial independence? And how does all this apply to other parts of the world?

I wasn't aiming at describing a new mechanic or feature, I think the game designers have their own views on how they want things done. I understand you really don't like the idea, so there is not much conversation to have no…
I think InsidiousMage's answer shows you can quite easily figure out ways to model that though.

It's not that I don't like it per se, I just don't think it can be feasibly implemented - and I don't believe there's much point to discussing it if the parties proposing it aren't willing to be thorough - else it can be summed up as "would be cool - yah."

 

[Riamus]

Although it sounds nice, the complexity it would add to the game is considerably more than the value it might add. Not only with coding, which would be a nightmare and very difficult to find every edge case, but also for all the new players who now have to figure out what goes with which liege and what they can or can't do based on multiple lieges - what happens when you have land in even more realms adding even more lieges? Sure, this happened in history, but so did many other things that aren't modeled in the game and aren't really necessary. If I take land from another realm, does that mean that I am unable to expand my liege's realm because it stays under control of another liege? Do my vassals' external wars no longer bring land into my realm but instead make it so that I have to try and keep track of who has land outside my realm? It would quickly become a nuisance for the player and a nightmare for new players who already have a fairly steep learning curve to really understand the game beyond just the basics. And that's just the start of the difficulties involved with something like this being added.

 

[ComplexToast]

It'd be nice, but it'd also be a nightmare to code for.

If I'm the Duke of Normandy and King of England, do you declare war on me, or on my liege, the King of France?

What if I'm the Duke of Normandy and King of England, and the King of France is also the Duke of Kent, such that we're simultaneously vassal and liege to each other? Who do you formally declare war on, and thus whose allies are invited to the party?

The liege could just be involved in the war if it concerned his territory. If somebody attacks William the Conqueror for the kingdom of England, the king of France won't be bothered because Normandy isn't under attack. If for example the king of Frisia pressed his claim on Normandy and invaded, then both England and France would stand to lose territory, so both *should* defend. But since vassals are apparently fine with losing land if their liege loses a war then I suppose with the game's current mechanics it would only be France who's defending.
I don't think multiple lieges would complicate warfare as much as you suggest, though I'm not saying it would be easy to implement. Still, it would certainly help with border gore, and it would be historically accurate.

 

[InsidiousMage]

And if both lieges have the same authority, and the vassal conquers land that is not de-jure either liege's realm, who gets the tax and levies from that land? Does the vassal rule that land as effectively independent, or vassal to a third realm? What if a vassal holds lands within the liege's realm and beyond the liege's de-jure land, is that land beyond those borders still part of the liege's realm?

To me, the easiest and simplest way for the system to work would be to have a primary and secondary liege. Your primary liege is the first lord you swore fealty to or was your liege at the start of the game. For example, lets say you are the Duke of Barcelona in 1066 and there is some Muslim consolidation in the early game so you decide to become a vassal of France, who is now your primary liege. You then inherit the Duchy of Bavaria so the Holy Roman Emperor is now your secondary liege. Any land your control in the realm of the HRE pays it's obligations to the Emperor, including non-de jure HRE territory that is already part of the HRE, like Provence for example. Any other territory you control pays its obligations to the King of France. If you become a king, de jure HRE or not, you would only owe obligations to the King of France for territory that is de jure France, if you had any. If your new kingdom was de jure HRE then the Emperor gets all of your feudal obligations. If, for example, you become King of Croatia, the only obligations you would owe to France or the HRE would be related to de jure territory, everything else would be considered part of Croatia now.

As for tertiary lieges, I wouldn't go beyond two lieges for simplicity's sake. If you would inherit territory that would give you a third liege it can either go to another dynasty member or just revert the king/emperor. You could then get claims that would allow you conquer the territory which would then be governed by the rules above. Anyone who already has two lieges are ineligible for claimant factions unless the title in question is already part of their lieges' domains.

What exactly dictates when a vassal should have multiple lieges?

I would say only inheritance or being installed by factions. If you conquered something, it's yours. If you are a king and inherit lands in another kingdom you only owe de jure obligations if they had high enough crown authority, level three, which normally stops lands from being inherited outside for the realm. If you are a vassal and gain a title equal to your liege you only obligations on de jure territory as well. If all of your domains are outside their de jure territory then you are completely independent.

Does a vassal become independent from a liege on losing all titles that were counted as part of that liege's realm, even if the vassal still holds land elsewhere?

Yes, unless that liege is also their primary liege. If you want true independence you would have to fight for it.

If a duke controls lands between two kingdoms, and one kingdom declares a claim war on that duchy, how is the vassalage assigned?

Could you add a little more detail. Like, is the duke is independent?

If a vassal can be vassal to multiple lieges, can a vassal be independent and vassal at the same time, and how does that interact with war targets?

Yes and no. Using William and Normandy as an example. William wouldn't strictly speaking, be the King of France's vassal but he would owe his feudal obligations, taxes and levies, to France. So, the King of France can't revoke his titles but neither can William have a council position and so on. William would owe increased obligations under higher crown laws but the actual feudal contract itself can't be changed. The Kingdom of France could still declare a de jure war in order to stop de jure drift. If someone wanted Normandy they would declare against William since the lands are currently part of his domains. If you are an independent duke and inherit titles in a kingdom then they would stay independent like the current game rules work.

Can a vassal declare a war for partial independence?

No opinion really. I feel like this is something that would need to be playtested to see what works best.

And how does all this apply to other parts of the world?

Given the fact the game treats the rest of the world as Feudal Europe I don't see why it couldn't do the same for shared vassalage. I would limit it to feudal rulers though and not make it available to Clan and Tribal Rulers.

 

[klopkr]

I think this is doable. I wrote a big post about this before CK3 was released.

I believe the way to do it is for titles to have liege titles rather than characters having liege characters. Equal rank characters who are lieges to each other are in a tenuous situation with a CB to expropriate their titles from under the other character of equal or lower rank. When you inherit a title the liege doesn't change. Some vassals can ask their liege for the right to expand titles outside of the power of their liege like Prussia. The country outline would be the direct owners land while the colour would be the top holders colour.

 

[Tiax]

I feel like it would be possible to come up with a system to handle this, but it seems like the sort of thing that would have to have been baked in since day 1. We've probably missed the boat on that, and will have to wait for CK4 to have another shot. Besides, I'm not even sure CK3 manages to implement Title Allegiance properly (not that there's any documentation of how it's supposed to work, so who can even say?), so I strongly doubt it could handle multiple lieges without collapsing under its own buggy weight.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

The liege could just be involved in the war if it concerned his territory. If somebody attacks William the Conqueror for the kingdom of England, the king of France won't be bothered because Normandy isn't under attack. If for example the king of Frisia pressed his claim on Normandy and invaded, then both England and France would stand to lose territory, so both *should* defend. But since vassals are apparently fine with losing land if their liege loses a war then I suppose with the game's current mechanics it would only be France who's defending.
I don't think multiple lieges would complicate warfare as much as you suggest, though I'm not saying it would be easy to implement. Still, it would certainly help with border gore, and it would be historically accurate.

So what about if I'm Duke of Kent, Anjou, and Ulster, and vassal to England and France?

Do neither of my sworn lieges come to my aid if I'm attacked for Ulster, since after all "neither stands to lose territory"?

What if I'm Duke of Kent and Anjou and my brother (with claims to everything I own) presses all claims against me? Do I get one liege responding and fighting the war? Do I get both? Who is in charge of the war and thus the primary defender who gets to make peace?

Again, what happens if I'm simultaneously liege and vassal to someone and you want to press claims against all my titles?
Or if you want to (say) have an excommunication war against me - does it target me or my liege?

What happens if I die without heirs whilst being a vassal to two (or more) lieges?
Especially what happens to land and titles exterior to all of their de jure lands?