Vassal feeding, every 100 dip points base tax are now 10 years of annexing time

[aqvamare]

They changed vassal feeding...

my 1180 dip points for annexing persia needs now 100 years for annexing. it is the downside.

the good side, vassal now claim the area around them, so you can feed them even more claims.

 

[durvas]

Yes, this is an unfortunate change. To be able to annex in any reasonable amount of time, you need to take Diplomatic Ideas and influence ideas. You still only pull even with the same amount of time it would have been in 1.7 if you have a Dip rep advisor on top of that. While this may be balanced late game, as the Dip per BT is lower now, it slows the early game unreasonably.

 

[Koivin]

If you play castille or poland, you can just give the occupation to aragon/lithuania and then the provinces themselves in the peace deal. Let them core everything and then once you are satisfied with the blob, enact the decision to form the joint nation. Voila.

 

[Umbosch]

Have you seen that your vasalls now change culture when you fedding with cores from other nation (different culture group)? Before AoW native never do that.

 

[atwix]

They changed vassal feeding...

my 1180 dip points for annexing persia needs now 100 years for annexing. it is the downside.

the good side, vassal now claim the area around them, so you can feed them even more claims.

wait, what? 100 years? That can't be right.

 

[durvas]

wait, what? 100 years? That can't be right.

It is. You only start out with +1 Dip rep, so you'd only be able to put 1 Dip point towards annexation per month. This forces you to get Diplomatic AND Influence to be anywhere decent at +5 Dip rep. Start a game at the Revolutionary France time (1792) and pick Russia. Add opinion to Kazakh and see that it would take 36 years to annex (for cheap lands) because you don't have anything to boost your Dip Rep. If you don't specifically take those 2 groups, you are SOL.

This slows the game down until you actually can fill out the 2 idea groups and forces even more expansion into the second half of the game. Of course, forcing countries to take specific idea groups for a major mechanic to be viable hurts those with fewer MP to spare (the ROTW) the most. There are NIs and advisors to go above +5, but not everyone has those NIs and the advisors need RNG to be available and at the level you can afford. There are a bunch of policies with +1 Dip rep, but having to further dish out MP over 10 years and be further pigeonholed into more specific groups is a bad design IMO.

I am really very surprised not to see more about this on the forums so far. It needs to be baseline +5 and ideas scaled down to +1, especially with the -3 malus whenever you finish annexing someone.

TLDR version of complaints:

1) Pigeon holes multiple idea groups for a major mechanic to be viable
2) Slows early game, forcing more expansion to second half
3) Pigeon holing groups hurts RotW as they will have fewer groups to use and are slower to fill

 

[blackchoas]

I'm sorry is the complaint that it takes you 100 years to annex 400% over extension worth of land?

I'm your right its alot worse than it was before buts that because its literally always been the best thing even, before it was completely free then it stopped being free and started being an insanely fast way to get around literally every negative part of conquest, while only charging you in one of the least important resources in the game

Now it still doesn't really charge you all that much of anything as it is well know you can completely ignore diplo tech but it actually takes time now, you know like the kind of time it would have taken you to stabilize this area if you have annexed it the normal way

On a side note does anyone know how diplo annexation effects if at all autonomy?

 

[durvas]

I'm sorry is the complaint that it takes you 100 years to annex 400% over extension worth of land?

I'm your right its alot worse than it was before buts that because its literally always been the best thing even, before it was completely free then it stopped being free and started being an insanely fast way to get around literally every negative part of conquest, while only charging you in one of the least important resources in the game

Now it still doesn't really charge you all that much of anything as it is well know you can completely ignore diplo tech but it actually takes time now, you know like the kind of time it would have taken you to stabilize this area if you have annexed it the normal way

On a side note does anyone know how diplo annexation effects if at all autonomy?

Really? A baseline of one tenth of one BT per month is acceptable for a core mechanic like Diplo-annexation (one fifth with 100 legitimacy)? Not to mention the dip rep hit every time you integrate, which effects CTAs and other diplomatic actions. As for autonomy, I have no idea what it's supposed to do. I tested it with Muscovy in 1464 by integrating Perm and Qasim. Qasim had 19% (up from 0%) and Perm provinces were at 75% (up from 0%). I like the idea that dip rep is useful again, but it affects integration far too much.

 

[ChildeR]

Haven't played enough yet to be sure but it seems fine. Annexation was too painless before. Now a large vassal is someone you'll likely keep either permanently (march?) or until you've filled out the necessary ideas. Annexing smaller vassals is still easy, you just won't grow them huge before you do.

 

[atwix]

ridiculous change. Integrate Spain who is worth 4500 diplo points takes 450 years? Thats longer then the entire game span.

this change sounds like (yet again) a nerf to aggressive expansion players, who have low dip rep.

Making an idea group "needed" to integrate big PU or vassal countries is just silly.

Anyways, the idea now is to make your vassal as big as possible, switch to other idea groups, integrate them?

It sounds really silly that a good strat is to make all your vassals bigger then you. You still need to be bigger then them to integrate them...

 

[lordboy54]

ridiculous change. Integrate Spain who is worth 4500 diplo points takes 450 years? Thats longer then the entire game span.

this change sounds like (yet again) a nerf to aggressive expansion players, who have low dip rep.

Making an idea group "needed" to integrate big PU or vassal countries is just silly.

Anyways, the idea now is to make your vassal as big as possible, switch to other idea groups, integrate them?

It sounds really silly that a good strat is to make all your vassals bigger then you. You still need to be bigger then them to integrate them...

Yeah... I mean, im all for less vassal feeding, but a hard limit like that hidden as a soft limit isn't really fair. 450 years is way too extreme. i mean spain is big, but not THAT big(unless this spain has annexed all of rest of europe as well?)

 

[Red John]

Haven't played enough yet to be sure but it seems fine. Annexation was too painless before. Now a large vassal is someone you'll likely keep either permanently (march?) .

Ahh yes, the march, which has a 60 base tax limit.

 

[Foxl]

If Diplo-Annexion cost that much (in time), it should really scale down with Admin Efficiency then. It makes no sense that conquering would be cheaper and faster in time while the rather peaceful annexation still cost the same like ~300 years before.

 

[atwix]

Yeah... I mean, im all for less vassal feeding, but a hard limit like that hidden as a soft limit isn't really fair. 450 years is way too extreme. i mean spain is big, but not THAT big(unless this spain has annexed all of rest of europe as well?)

I have integrated a 350x15 spain. It took entire russian colony land after i blocked russia. I let them do that, since they were my PU partner since early 16th century.




Anyways, how is a country like denmark supposed to integrate their PU subjects now?

I still say, ridiculous change.

 

[ChildeR]

Ahh yes, the march, which has a 60 base tax limit.

Yeah, didn't remeber that – I don't have the DLC yet. However, a >60 BT vassal is militarily useful regardless, even in 1.7.

 

[ChildeR]

Anyways, how is a country like denmark supposed to integrate their PU subjects now?

Do they have an inherit chance in 1.8?

 

[Clownie]

I fail to see the problem. If you want to expand, you should have to take the appropriate idea groups. Would you ever go coring a bunch of stuff without administrative and religious/humanism ideas?

edit: to clarify, I meant if you want to expand a lot, fast.

 

[blackchoas]

I have integrated a 350x15 spain. It took entire russian colony land after i blocked russia. I let them do that, since they were my PU partner since early 16th century.




Anyways, how is a country like denmark supposed to integrate their PU subjects now?

I still say, ridiculous change.

Remind me again how long it took Denmark to historically integrate its PU nations again? Oh right historically it didn't happen, historically most PU didn't actually end in integration but in the breaking up of the PU, its like something that was rare and difficult historically should remain that way

 

[BarskiPatzow]

This makes you choose military expansion or diplomatic expansion. Tell me how many large countries were diplomaticly annexed without a PU in history, I'm not that knowledgeable about that.

 

[atwix]

Remind me again how long it took Denmark to historically integrate its PU nations again? Oh right historically it didn't happen, historically most PU didn't actually end in integration but in the breaking up of the PU, its like something that was rare and difficult historically should remain that way

Hardly a valid argument, sorry.

This change still makes me think humanism+religious and flat out coring is better then feeding a big vassal or a greater power PU nation you can't possibly integrate unless you take the "needed" idea groups.

And I still wonder how one is supposed to play denmark now.