Varied societies: you specialise who you want to

[mammonmachine]

A notable feature of Stellaris is that all societies have the same fundamental structure, with certain jobs as worker jobs, others as specialists. This social order is maintained throughout a 300 year timespan in which empires go from a one planet state to a multi-stellar empire. Not all of these specialist make sense either - artisan stands out as particularly strange, as someone who manufactures consumer goods would normally be your classic proletarian.

My suggestion is that that most worker and specialist job function (miner, technician, metallurgist, culture worker etc) has both a worker and a specialist version, with different names and production values. For instance:

Clerk --> Trader
Miner --> Geologist
Farmer --> Botanist
Factory Worker --> Artisan
Metal Worker --> Metallurgist

Whether you end up with specialists or workers in each area depends on the decisions you make.

How do you choose who is a specialist?
There are different ways of implementing this, but I would propose that the base is that all functions start as worker, and there are two mechanisms to upgrade certain jobs to specialists.

The first would be a societal 'civic', similar to the present origin slot. This grants you an empire institute, which assigns a number of jobs as specialist across the empire. So a society with a tradition of advanced earth sciences might specialise their miners (perhaps now named geologists) and refiners, a society geared around a military-industrial complex might specialise their soldiers and metallurgists. These would of course need to be carefully balanced and thought through to be flavourful and interesting.

The second would be through the production of tech-unlocked sector-wide institutes, that upgrade another set of workers into a specialist on a sector-wide basis. There would be a soft cap on the number of institutes (with strong penalties for going over), which is increased by techs and traditions (and possibly ethics/civics). Institutes will give sectors a different character from each other, and might in a small way incentivise the production of 'dense' empires around a strong core sector as an alternative to sprawling empires. (not enough to solve wide v tall, but might do a little to alleviate this)

There may be one or two job functions we always want as specialist (e.g. researcher) but this is open to discussion.

How will workers and specialists differ?
Specialists will produce significantly more of their base resource, and produce some other resource, usually intangible like unity or research. For instance, the Geologist will produce more minerals than a miner, and also a small amount of engineering research. The Botanist (a specialist farmer) will produced twice the food and also a little society research.

An additional option is that specialist reduce the number of jobs, without reducing levels of resources e.g. by replacing every two worker jobs with one specialist job. (Where there are odd numbers, a worker job will remain). This frees up pops for other jobs.

Creating yet more variety
There could also be the option of 'forking' institutes through upgrade options, to create distinct classes of specialists who are superior in some ways to the 'vanilla' specialists we are all used to.

For instance, we could go: Farmer --> Agriculturist then either: --> Botanist (bonus society research) or --> Permaculturist (more food + amenities)
Or we could have the option of an additional upgrade of Enforcers to Secret Police who give bonus governing ethics attraction.

Problems and potentials
The main issue I see with this is the complexity of balancing all of these job roles. Hopefully you could set up reasonably simple AI instructions (particular AI characters favour particular institutes). It would create a generic mechanism to make societies feel different from each other, specialise in the production of different resources, and make the most of what they have. Perhaps there is a simpler implementation as well - for instance, you could introduce the specialist institutes only to provide flavourful upgrades of the current class system.

 

[DukeLeto42]

The first would be a societal 'civic', similar to the present origin slot. This grants you an empire institute, which assigns a number of jobs as specialist across the empire. So a society with a tradition of advanced earth sciences might specialise their miners (perhaps now named geologists) and refiners, a society geared around a military-industrial complex might specialise their soldiers and metallurgists. These would of course need to be carefully balanced and thought through to be flavourful and interesting.

To me, this immediately reads as a place for the "Agrarian Idyll" civic, and probably also "Mining Guilds."

The second would be through the production of tech-unlocked sector-wide institutes, that upgrade another set of workers into a specialist on a sector-wide basis. There would be a soft cap on the number of institutes (with strong penalties for going over), which is increased by techs and traditions (and possibly ethics/civics). Institutes will give sectors a different character from each other, and might in a small way incentivise the production of 'dense' empires around a strong core sector as an alternative to sprawling empires. (not enough to solve wide v tall, but might do a little to alleviate this)

This could play in well with egalitarian and authoritarian civics - egalitarians would push to move as many pops as possible into specialist slots, while authoritarians would not (probably sacrificing the institutes' ability to push up more specialists for more / more productive rulers).

 

[Jeffreyteciller]

I generally like this idea, especially with me being kinda bugged by how the industrial district is the only district that creates specialists instead of workers. However, I’m not completely sold on your proposition for how this system should be handled, and I think it’d be better if this system was instead tied to the advanced structures, i.e nexuses, purification plants and whatnot, so that districts provide workers while buildings provide specialists. That way, agriculture planets would have botanists, due to the food processing centers, to show how this planet puts higher emphasis on farmers, and thus some of them can get a higher standard of living.

That way, a planet won’t just completely change its composition just because it changed owner, and its owner had a different instutute.

 

[mammonmachine]

I generally like this idea, especially with me being kinda bugged by how the industrial district is the only district that creates specialists instead of workers. However, I’m not completely sold on your proposition for how this system should be handled, and I think it’d be better if this system was instead tied to the advanced structures, i.e nexuses, purification plants and whatnot, so that districts provide workers while buildings provide specialists. That way, agriculture planets would have botanists, due to the food processing centers, to show how this planet puts higher emphasis on farmers, and thus some of them can get a higher standard of living.

That way, a planet won’t just completely change its composition just because it changed owner, and its owner had a different instutute

That's an interesting approach, and one that makes a lot of sense. You are right, that specialists shouldn't immediately deskill because they have new rulers. I would like to think of a way that takes this approach but still incorporates some level of wider societal differentiation, and also a means by which specialisation is more available to tall/dense empires than wide. But your suggestion would achieve much of what's good and flavourful whilst integrating far more tidily with existing game systems.

 

[GOLANX]

Militarist empires should want their soldiers as specialist because it is held in higher regard in their society, I don't know that they should employ fewer though, its a reflection of what the society values and if they were conquered by a non Militarist empire they would get demoted because they aren't valuable in the new society, they might get angry about it though.

Something else to think about, a worker making consumer goods is likely making some mass produced product on an assembly line exactly like the way Model T was made. A Specialist or Artisan instead makes handcrafted high quality consumer goods, but as a result does not produce as much. A Handmade Ferrari may be worth much more than some assembly line Ford 2 door. But there are several more Fords out there than Ferraris, and society benefits more from the mass if Fords than the handful of Ferraris.

 

[Anton1978]

How is Sid Meier's Colonization game?
When did one specialist perform better than an untrained settler?

 

[mammonmachine]

Militarist empires should want their soldiers as specialist because it is held in higher regard in their society, I don't know that they should employ fewer though, its a reflection of what the society values and if they were conquered by a non Militarist empire they would get demoted because they aren't valuable in the new society, they might get angry about it though.

I do see what you mean. Though a militarist society might like the large army of conscripts more than the smaller professionalised army. A large professionalised army might be represented by building more strongholds/academies. But also - I can see the case that by just converted everyone into specialists, it does potentially free up capacity in other ways, because you e.g. need less strongholds to protect your planets and service your fleets. I agree with your point on pops despecialising with conquest being a bit odd (though I also like the idea of a highly specialised empire being conquered and then having a large unemployed middle class refusing to do worker roles.)

Something else to think about, a worker making consumer goods is likely making some mass produced product on an assembly line exactly like the way Model T was made. A Specialist or Artisan instead makes handcrafted high quality consumer goods, but as a result does not produce as much. A Handmade Ferrari may be worth much more than some assembly line Ford 2 door. But there are several more Fords out there than Ferraris, and society benefits more from the mass if Fords than the handful of Ferraris.

I actually disagree with this. First, you are using a divide in production appropriate to the 20th century, that is not inevitable by the 23rd. We already have nascent technologies such as 3D printing that could begin to undo the mass-manufactured/bespoke paradigm. I imagine the artisan as an incredibly skilled individual who uses open technologies to create bespoke and beautiful products at a very quick rate. Quicker than a factory worker? Probably not, but I do think that not all consumers goods are equal, and the in-game consumer goods quantity represents their use value, and not the quantity of goods. The artisan rapidly produces custom products that last a lifetime, the factory worker a lower quality product that deteriorates quicker and that people are more likely to dispose off. In terms of social value, doubling is appropriate.

I realise btw that I set this up with my 'classic proletarian' remark, and I do like the idea of sci-fi societies that retain factory drudgery, but I think there are other ways to imagine things. Again it might be possible to 'fork' the artisan route to slower production methods that also produce intangibles like unity or society research.

 

[GOLANX]

I do see what you mean. Though a militarist society might like the large army of conscripts more than the smaller professionalised army. A large professionalised army might be represented by building more strongholds/academies. But also - I can see the case that by just converted everyone into specialists, it does potentially free up capacity in other ways, because you e.g. need less strongholds to protect your planets and service your fleets. I agree with your point on pops despecialising with conquest being a bit odd (though I also like the idea of a highly specialised empire being conquered and then having a large unemployed middle class refusing to do worker roles.)

Conscripts and Draftees are forced into military service reguardless of consent a Militarist society places value in the soldier job and should not require Conscription to fulfill soldier roles, soldiers are Specialist because they have a higher status in the society, if they didn't have that status then it is unlikely the empire would be Militarist just an exceptionally confrontational pick other ethic empire.

I'm also not saying that Militarist Specialist soldiers provide any higher benefits, merely that the job gets the higher priority for filling like Specialist, and the living standards for Specialist, its not that their soldiers are better simply that they are treated better.

I also wouldn't say that soldiers would become unemployed should their profession lose a level, they became soldiers because of the social and culture value the Militarist society placed on it and that wouldn't necessarily go away with the change in masters. They would however dislike the reduced status and may represent that through reduced stability as soldiers become rebellious/mutinous over the changes.

I actually disagree with this. First, you are using a divide in production appropriate to the 20th century, that is not inevitable by the 23rd. We already have nascent technologies such as 3D printing that could begin to undo the mass-manufactured/bespoke paradigm. I imagine the artisan as an incredibly skilled individual who uses open technologies to create bespoke and beautiful products at a very quick rate. Quicker than a factory worker? Probably not, but I do think that not all consumers goods are equal, and the in-game consumer goods quantity represents their use value, and not the quantity of goods. The artisan rapidly produces custom products that last a lifetime, the factory worker a lower quality product that deteriorates quicker and that people are more likely to dispose off. In terms of social value, doubling is appropriate.

I realise btw that I set this up with my 'classic proletarian' remark, and I do like the idea of sci-fi societies that retain factory drudgery, but I think there are other ways to imagine things. Again it might be possible to 'fork' the artisan route to slower production methods that also produce intangibles like unity or society research.

Your not wrong that future artisans may have access to production methods that allow them to produce near the quantity of the factory worker, and that would help balance things out. What I don't expect to change much are the basic market principles of Supply and Demand, say Ferrari could produce vehicles at the same rate as Ford, their supply would increase drastically, this would lead to the value being reduced due to the quantity available, and Ford would suffer as the opportunity cost of acquiring the high quality consumer goods increases. If it was just as expensive to buy either you would buy the Ferrari. By a similar token the rarity of the Ferrari gives it much more cultural value, if they were commonplace it wouldn't have that status. If everyone could own an original Mona Lisa ita wouldn't be valuable either.

What I'm saying is that an artisan creates a luxury good, but if produced at the same rate as a common good, then it stops being a luxury good. If you want to represent artisans as creating less consumer goods and producing unity and maybe trade value instead, that I would understand.

I also don't think alloys would have a Specialist role either, I see Alloys as being steel to the minerals Iron, you can improve production methods but at the end of the day it's a manual labor job that needs doing without room to grow or improve. It's the shipyards that use the alloys that grow and improve on the product.

I do somewhat get behind the idea of traders botanist and geologist and I can appreciate the thought of wanting to reduce the number of jobs available by making more productive jobs. But at the end of the day manual labor will always be a necessity, robots can do it, slaves, clones can do it, hell if the devs saw fit you could use telekinesis to do manual labor, manual labor will always be required.

 

[mammonmachine]

So - on soldiers and specialisation. I don't agree that there is much point introducing different levels of specialisation if the only difference it makes is to their living standards. On a game play level, that's too trivial, you should feel you are getting some return.

On consumer goods, there are two aspects to this. I don't want to get too in the weeds on this, but I don't think a rarity model of value fully captures why things are valued. And even it did, the idea I was suggesting with artisans is they could make something bespoke, that would be long lasting and somebody would not be inclined to throw away. So the item would be incredibly rare because it is tailored for the person.

On metal workers/metallurgists, really this is all a victim of the dev's framing of this work as alloy production, whereas it surely represents the production of advanced spaceship materials and even components. But even if we accept the strange premise of metallurgy as the profession of the future (and I do see the dilemma in clearly representing this), with the right developments and the right technology, I don't see why labour couldn't be organised to privilege specialised knowledge over manual work. To be clear, I am not arguing that you can eliminate manual work entirely, but change the predominant character of an area of work so it is predominantly a specialist, rather than worker, role. (This is what the job class represents, all job areas would have specialists and workers if you think about it).

Anyway, I do take the overall point that a doubling of production might feel a bit incongruous, though I do think increased production is both justifiable in terms of realism and game mechanics.

 

[GOLANX]

So - on soldiers and specialisation. I don't agree that there is much point introducing different levels of specialisation if the only difference it makes is to their living standards. On a game play level, that's too trivial, you should feel you are getting some return.

It also effects job priorities, since pops are the bottleneck this change helps keep soldier jobs filled whereas otherwise they may not be filled potentially ever as you will never fill all of the jobs on a non-breeder planet.

On consumer goods, there are two aspects to this. I don't want to get too in the weeds on this, but I don't think a rarity model of value fully captures why things are valued. And even it did, the idea I was suggesting with artisans is they could make something bespoke, that would be long lasting and somebody would not be inclined to throw away. So the item would be incredibly rare because it is tailored for the person.

AFAIK the Supply and Demand model is the model Economist have agreed on for how market economies work, it's economics 101 but if you have a different model with peer review that supports your assertion ID be more than happy to hear it. Also Command economies are exempt from supply and demand as you are not using rarefied resources (money) to aquire goods and services but you are apportioned them from the state.
Also how often you replace your phone? Your computer? Your car? Some things become obsolete and we replace them, it's also really good for the economy that we do replace these things. If you were to create a consumer good that reduced a pops need for consumer goods when consumed you would end up not consuming those goods and end up with a glut, in reality that would result in a economic crash as you would not be able to cover the cost of production. Idk maybe we just won't agree here that's fine not going to retired this topic.

On metal workers/metallurgists, really this is all a victim of the dev's framing of this work as alloy production, whereas it surely represents the production of advanced spaceship materials and even components. But even if we accept the strange premise of metallurgy as the profession of the future (and I do see the dilemma in clearly representing this), with the right developments and the right technology, I don't see why labour couldn't be organised to privilege specialised knowledge over manual work. To be clear, I am not arguing that you can eliminate manual work entirely, but change the predominant character of an area of work so it is predominantly a specialist, rather than worker, role. (This is what the job class represents, all job areas would have specialists and workers if you think about it).

if metulergist are also programming computers maybe I would get why specialized knowledge would be a thing, but that's a finicky thing to represent.

Anyway, I do take the overall point that a doubling of production might feel a bit incongruous, though I do think increased production is both justifiable in terms of realism and game mechanics.

Pop groups has been going around and I quite like that idea ultimately we need to reduce the number of calculations the game is doing so we don't end up with other pop growth logarithmic curves, and can remove the ones that got added.