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SpySappinMyUser

Second Lieutenant
69 Badges
Oct 20, 2013
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Hi all,

I'm starting my first 'real' (i.e. not arcade mode, no console, no savescumming etc.) game in HoI 3 as Germany and I'd appreciate some advice regarding navies. I understand the meta has changed over time, but seeing as how HoI 3 isn't updated anymore I'm hoping there is a stable 'ideal' to work with. This is vanilla, not BICE -- I've played BICE before (years ago), but I'm not ready to come back to it yet, also my old PC couldn't handle it, lol.

Anyway, I understand most mechanics decently but I am lost about fleets, and worry that whatever I build will be flattened by UK doomstacks. I've heard 3 BBs + shit load of DDs can work, or 3/4 CVs + shit load of CLs, and that NAVs and INTs on land can help, but I'm also getting different opinions here from threads here and elsewhere over the past 10 years. What would work best for Sea Lion after beating Soviets (so leaving UK with an Atlantic Wall defense until after Bitter Peace)? I imagine that will give me time to get a fleet or two of some size and strength ready and updated, along with marines and air power.

I don't think I'll be able to build up enough to do Sea Lion as it was planned "historically" in 1940/41, because 1) Germany's navy is ass at start and 2) Soviets are hardcoded to DOW me as soon as I take a province in the UK, IIRC.

Advice welcome, thanks all.
 
I've had great success going for a Battlecruiser heavy build. Really, getting six 1938-tech level BCs with the attendant doctrines and some light cruisers or destroyers to go with them should be good.

The Soviets will DoW you if you get close to causing the British to capitulate. Suffice it to say, however, that a few things might happen: The UK AI will eat lead chips, and stash their entire army in Northern Ireland, while losing nearly the entire RN and thus allowing you to cut them off from England and doing Sea Lion on the cheap; The UK AI will eat lead chips and send their entire fleet to the Pacific after you KO most of their Battleships and heavy cruisers if Japan is working with you; the UK AI might eat lead chips and do a combination of both.
 
I've had excellent results with a pair of BCs or BBs, a pair of CAs, and around 6 CLs per fleet (you want slightly more escorts than capital ships, in case you lose an escort or two). DDs are less likely to be hit, but CLs are more likely to pull back and survive if hit; you can take your pick, rather than having to research both. If you lay down the keel for your first BC at the start of the campaign, then add the second about 6 months later, that gives you plenty of time to research the current engine tech for your BBs, and then start construction on the first BB after completion of a modest round of IC construction. When the first BC completes, the increased Capital Ship Practical value will cause the second ship to move up about 6 months, and significantly speed up the BBs as well. The second BC will also significantly expedite construction the BBs. I generally have the 2 BCs, 2 BBs, 4-5 CAs, and around 8-10 CLs, along with a handful of long-range subs, either finished or just about to complete by the time I declare on Poland, not counting the pre-existing Baltic Fleet.

There's generally a CVL well under construction as well, the first lethargic CVL going with the obsolete Baltic fleet, and the newer, faster second CVL going with the BB fleet to provide air defense (it needs at least 2 engine tech upgrades to keep pace). By the time the first CVL completes, I've already laid the keel for the first REAL CV, which will have its own fleet, following the BC or BB fleets to provide air coverage. DO NOT mix full CVs in the same fleet with either BBs or BCs, because the CV will take priority, and all of your escorts will abandon the BBs/BCs to stay back with the carrier(s). The unprotected capital ships will then eat all of the inbound opposing firepower and die, rather than having 50-70% of that firepower directed at your escorts at poor odds to hit. CVLs don't have that issue, and can be added for air support, as long as they're fast enough not to slow down the whole fleet. Simple math: each of your escorts will draw roughly as much fire as each of the capital ships (doctrines will affect that somewhat), so 6 escorts guarding 4 BB/BC/CA means 60% of the shots will be directed at your escorts. If even half of the shots that WOULD have hit the capital ships miss the more agile escorts instead, you've reduced total damage suffered by 30%, increased the total amount of Defensiveness reducing the effect of those shots, and spread the remaining damage out among more ships. Once the escorts are knocked out of combat, the capital ships don't last long.

My surface navy parks in a Baltic port until France falls (no point in taking on the French navy if you don't have to), sortieing out only if the UK sends ships into the Baltic to harass my subs sinking convoys to and from Poland. After the fall of France (I hit the Maginot Line with Engineers and TAC bombers immediately, before the defenders get a dug-in bonus, leading to an early break-through), the fleets pull a Channel Dash to reach the annexed French ports below Brest, and heaven help the UK fleet that tries to intercept 2xBB, 2xBC, 1xCVL, 4xCA, and 12xCL protected by extensive land-based air support. Only then should you allow Italy to join the Axis, otherwise the combined French and UK navies will generally crush the Italian fleet before you're ready to assist. Once France is out of the picture, the German, Italian, and Japanese fleets should tear up the Royal Navy quite nicely. The old WWI BCs and obsolete DDs can stay in the Baltic for use during Seelow, and later to take on Soviet ships operating out of Leningrad.

Using subs as spotters and as bait (while raiding shipping off the north coast of Spain), I can usually pick on small isolated UK fleets, pouncing on them with my BCs and land-based NAV as they hunt my subs, then joining in with the BB fleet once they're pinned in place. If the UK carriers show up, break off before you take too much damage. By the end of 1940, I've generally sunk at least half of the UK's BBs for the cost of a CA and a couple of CLs, and the Japanese and Italians usually take out one or two more BBs.

When you've thinned the herd a bit, then you can pull off Seelow fairly easily. "Simply" (there's a misused word for you) move the old Baltic fleet to one end of the Channel, and your modern BB fleet to the opposite end, with the BC and CV fleets escorting the convoys in a sea zone between them. Use subs to provide early warning against anything major. The UK has to go through your other fleets before it can get to the transports, and the BC fleet can react to join battle at either end while the convoys unload. In one campaign, the UK put up a really tough fight at one end of the Channel; in another it couldn't muster more than a lone CL to attempt to stop me. Regardless, your BBs can sit and take a pounding for a long time before you need to break off and head for port, by which time your transports should have unloaded (air attacks will likely sink or severly damage several, so have a couple extra to spread out damage and/or cover losses). Once your troops grab a decent port to allow for the rapid transfer of troops and supplies without sitting offshore to unload (you can also deploy a pre-built level 1 port, but be aware that it will take time to become fully effective, and close to forever to upgrade), the occupation of England should be a relative cakewalk. I've taken out the UK by mid 1940, but in subsequent games I don't allow myself to invade the UK until I've sealed off both ends of the Mediterranean and effectively eliminated the Royal Navy's ability to stop me from crossing the Channel at will.

The Soviets get a random chance to mobilize and then declare war if/when you take any one of several major UK ports or cities, so have the majority of your ground forces ready on the Soviet border before making your landing attempt. Enjoy your world domination.
 
4 BC's and 10 DD's for my SAG's. 10+ DD's for my chase fleets. I have found this fleet comp to be the perfect combination of fleet speed, IC efficiency, and firepower. I don't build or research any other ships.
 
From a purely optimized standpoint, an all-DD or all-CL fleet can crush just about anything in the game, but it's remarkably cheezy, and you'll lose a fair number of DDS or a few CLs in the process. While the escorts will evade most shots, those shots that do hit will cause serious damage, and the DDs in particular will tend to sink. You win, but it's not necessarily the cheapest way to win. An all-escort chase fleet isn't a bad idea for running down damaged carriers, but I wouldn't want to use it as my main combat fleet. BBs and BCs have the ability to shrug off a lot of damage (their high defensiveness negates a lot of the hits), and soak up even more without sinking. More importantly, they're excellent for pinning an enemy fleet in place while your air units chew up the opposing fleet, and living to tell about it.

Concentrating on one ship type saves several tons of research points, so that's a consideration, but Germany has the Leadership points to waste on researching frivolous things and still win anyway.
 
In the early game I would advise building level 1 CVLs just to build up practicals, while slowly catching up in carrier tech. You can safely mix them in with other capitals (unlike CVs) because they have a lower priority in the OOB. They will prevent enemy CVs from completely de-orging your fleets at first contact and allow for time to disengage before major damage gets done.

You can also afford to neglect certain capital techs. A sufficient number of 1936 or 1938 BBs and BCs will last you the entire game, or at least until you can get decent CVs.

Generally speaking, it's not a problem to have out of date navies, especially if you can put some leadership into doctrines (the AI brutally neglects naval doctrines).

One final point: NAVs are incredibly powerful anywhere you're in range of a port. As UK, I once sunk the entire German and Italian fleets with CAGs and NAVs using port strikes. Bombing UK ports is more difficult because the UK gets air combat bonuses from Radar and scripted events in the Channel ports. But this is not a problem. First de-org their fighters with interceptors, then bomb their airfields with TAC, then bomb their ports. Even if you're airforce is torn to shreds in the operation, sinking navies is much, much more valuable--they take much longer to repair and rebuild. All of the Naval Air doctrines are worthwhile (even the one that reduces Port Strike org penalty).
 
I mostly agree about building and mixing CVLs with other fleets, but be aware that the speed of a baseline CVL is pathetically slow, and will adversely affect the speed of the entire fleet it's with for map movement. It can also be caught and sunk during battles, since many of the enemy capital ships can outrun it. If playing Germany, I build ONE basic CVL to warm the Carrier Practical (It's fast enough to work with Germany's obsolete Baltic Fleet), but don't start work on a second until I've researched at least 2 levels of Engine tech for it. At that point, you can also lay down the keel for your first REAL carrier, although that won't be finished for quite a while. That second CVL will at least match speed with any pre-war BBs that you build, and can be combined with Bismarck and Tirpitz to provide defensive air cover, but is too slow to run with Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. Add a decent Admiral and some escorts, and the Royal Navy is toast.

I also agree about NAV being powerful, and try my best to engage enemy fleets within range of them, if possible. CAGs can also be land-based, which gives you additional fighter support to protect your NAV from enemy CAGs in any naval battles near shore, but they still have shorter range than NAV. Carriers solve that problem, but are obviously rather expensive.
 
I mostly agree about building and mixing CVLs with other fleets, but be aware that the speed of a baseline CVL is pathetically slow, and will adversely affect the speed of the entire fleet it's with for map movement. It can also be caught and sunk during battles, since many of the enemy capital ships can outrun it. If playing Germany, I build ONE basic CVL to warm the Carrier Practical (It's fast enough to work with Germany's obsolete Baltic Fleet), but don't start work on a second until I've researched at least 2 levels of Engine tech for it. At that point, you can also lay down the keel for your first REAL carrier, although that won't be finished for quite a while. That second CVL will at least match speed with any pre-war BBs that you build, and can be combined with Bismarck and Tirpitz to provide defensive air cover, but is too slow to run with Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. Add a decent Admiral and some escorts, and the Royal Navy is toast.

I also agree about NAV being powerful, and try my best to engage enemy fleets within range of them, if possible. CAGs can also be land-based, which gives you additional fighter support to protect your NAV from enemy CAGs in any naval battles near shore, but they still have shorter range than NAV. Carriers solve that problem, but are obviously rather expensive.

Yeah, speed is an interesting stat for navies. It has two functions: catching fleeing fleets, and successfully engaging them once in combat. I mostly play as UK, so I never concern myself with having out of date ships (because ASW, radar and AA all upgrade) and speed is a less important stat (I actually want enemy ships to catch mine and enter combat--I can afford to lose a few if necessary in order to neutralize the Axis navies). For the German player, being able to stay out of range, disengage and flee is more important, hence you don't want to mix CVLs with fast cruisers.

Depending on how you manage IC, you should be able to build one (or ideally two) CVLs to increase practicals, and then put multiple fleet carriers in the cue without compromising your land and air preparations. CVs add 3.4 carrier practical IIRC so building 2 1934 CVs followed by 4 1938 CVs will really set up your navy to face off against the UK, then the USA. A final round of 4 to 6 1940 or 1942 CVs will build in well under two years and be sufficient for operations anywhere in the Atlantic or Pacific theatres. In vanilla, you don't even need cruiser escorts as long as your Air and Naval doctrines are up to date.

If you wait to get carrier practical going, your transatlantic invasion plans will be delayed by many months if not years.