Valhalla or victory

[unmerged(45180)]

I read that using "Valhalla or victory" your troops will keep fighting instead of retreating when they are defeated, thus possibly winning but with terrible losses.

My question is, are there any other reasons not to use this function all the time? I think that toggling that on should rise dissent, lower other troops morale or possibly cause 10% strenght hit to that unit (due deserters and executions, like in soviet penal battalions). I guess this strenght hit might be the best and the easiest solution. Otherwise armies with low morale but lots of units and manpower (like that of the USSR) would use VoV all the time against more "expensive" German units.

 

[unmerged(90310)]

I read that using "Valhalla or victory" your troops will keep fighting instead of retreating when they are defeated, thus possibly winning but with terrible losses.

My question is, are there any other reasons not to use this function all the time? I think that toggling that on should rise dissent, lower other troops morale or possibly cause 10% strenght hit to that unit (due deserters and executions, like in soviet penal battalions). I guess this strenght hit might be the best and the easiest solution. Otherwise armies with low morale but lots of units and manpower (like that of the USSR) would use VoV all the time against more "expensive" German units.

some good ideas here

 

[unmerged(155178)]

VoV can already raise dissent, I believe. Also, I do not believe 0 ORG units attack back. All they could do is absorb blows to delay or wait for reinforcements. If 0 ORG units DO fight back, it might be worth a minute to consider how it would affect combat if they couldn't.

 

[Conanteacher]

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What theh...OMG !!! An Ad !!!
Hurry up, modders! Delete it quickly!

 

[zeekater]

Otherwise armies with low morale but lots of units and manpower (like that of the USSR) would use VoV all the time against more "expensive" German units.

Isn't that what they did IRL?

 

[crusadertsar]

Chinese cellphones!? lol, i think that was a joke.

 

[unmerged(45180)]

Isn't that what they did IRL?

Yes, they might have. But I also think that it caused more desertions, or at least more attempted desertions. ->strenght hit for desertions, executions and rise of military police need.

 

[zeekater]

Don't divisions take much more damage when they are out of org already? So I'd think this is in

 

[dragon1990]

Yes, they might have. But I also think that it caused more desertions, or at least more attempted desertions. ->strenght hit for desertions, executions and rise of military police need.

that and when you throw in the dissent rise couple with less combat effectiveness with that its probably fine.

 

[Conanteacher]

The question is, will it be useful to do so in game or there is no real benefit to counter the dissent hit or the unit's loss...?

I hope it is not only implemented for the flavor, as I don't get really excited of role playing the 6th Army's last days in Stalingrad!

 

[unmerged(45180)]

The question is, will it be useful to do so in game or there is no real benefit to counter the dissent hit or the unit's loss...?

I hope it is not only implemented for the flavor, as I don't get really excited of role playing the 6th Army's last days in Stalingrad!

I have thought more about this, and believe that there shouldn't be a dissent hit because it would be too complicated for different sized countries and armies. However I still think that there should be a strenght hit (or a combat modifier like worse efficiency, etc, whatever) hit to the unit when it enters battle. Note that it should happen only when the battle occurs, because otherways the unit might be reinforced to full strenght.

If there are no adverse effects of using the VoV, then the german spearheads cannot pierce through the soviet lines and destroy about a hundered of divisions by pocketing, because the player can make them stand fast and fight to the death at the frontline without the fear of being pocketed.

This will blunt them very cost efficiently and at the same time slow them down for the winter and the bombers to do their magic. Normally the units would be pocketed easily and destroyed "for free" but having the units willingly fight to the death in a non-desperate situation is just absurd.

 

[Mjarr]

Increasing supply consumption whenever VoV is active among with increased org loss could also do the trick, combined with extra modifier for it.

Considering when VoV is on, they basically do whatever they can to not retreat and such, which on the other hand would theoretically speaking result into wasting material more than is necessary and considering the mindset it creates once you are given orders that: "If you retreat you'll be killed" is not exactly motivating for a soldier itself, yet idea of an desertion is not either favoured for diffrent reasons.

The way how it could work in theory is this: 1. you put VoV on to unit(s), which results into... let's say +300% supply consumption as long as it is on, 2. The unit actually gains a minor 'bonus' in terms of combat modifiers (+10? +15?) for the fierce resistance and determination some of the soldiers have put on, or atleast the officer corps, 3. the strenght loss for deserters and such, 4. increased org loss ultimately as after all, trying to fight while there's someone breathing down your neck with a gun (not psysically, but mentally as retreat and you get penalized or shot) is not exactly motivating or healthy for the soldiers themselves.

So what you gain by putting it on would be minor combat effiency boost, but you also gain +300% more supply consumption as long as it is on (or +500%?), you will lose 10-15% of unit strenght and you will lose org 33-40% faster than normally. Of course that is just a theory, but it could work given some testing.

 

[unmerged(155178)]

I don't see why you want a solid, instant drop in strength %. And why do you want org to drop faster? the whole point of VoV is that a unit continues to defend even with 0 ORG. If it had ORG, why would you click VoV?

 

[naq29]

If a unit continues to defend with 0 org, so org is meaningless. I think it can be better if players can trade strength for org. For example, make a unit immediately loses some strength but increase org during the battle.

 

[Mjarr]

the whole point of VoV is that a unit continues to defend even with 0 ORG. If it had ORG, why would you click VoV?

Standing to the last man and holding positions probably as long as possible against an attack - especially if it's overwhelhing - is problematic, sooner or later you might face the danger of being enveloped and being overrun that results into more casualties or if they do retreat, massive disorganisation.

Obviously considering the combat occurs somewhere in the province, everything is not 100% static but attempting to hold and defend to the last man will be a problematic burden as organisation also represents the overall state of the soldiers' readyness (not in terms of strenght, but wearyness etc) in simplified way, how would you want to fight a battle if you've been given orders not to retreat at all costs and you're facing overwhelming attack?

Ignoring some fanatics or some other minor exceptions, even if you personally could handle few days of barrages and constant concentrated attacks it would wear you down eventually to the point you can't do it, and presuming you would have someone breathing down your neck with a gun, it's bit of a dilemma what to do.

Fierce determination and resistance may help you to defend an area and slow down enemy progress (hence the combat modifier boost for VoV option), but you will also wear your own soldiers eventually down faster than keeping things more organized and flexible. Of course there are many variables and situations that might effect this, but let's consider eastern front in 1944. Some german soldiers actually reguested to be shot by their friends just to get out of the pocket they were about to be trapped in due their commander (orders, surprise surprise) did not allow any sort of retreat. What sort of effect that has to the division itself when even it's own soldiers are having doubts what the hell they are doing?

While the org thing could be one way to prevent offensive exploit of VoV, it's more to go for the idea that you can put up more fierce resistance and determined defence, but it will exhaust itself faster despite the fact it keeps fighting on and on even when it's completely disorganized -> more casualties in the long run.

 

[unmerged(99323)]

what if clicking that button while in combat exchanged 50 STR for 50 ORG for all divisions in the corps?

 

[Conanteacher]

How about it would delay the offenders by destroying the defending unit?
e.g. an american div attacks after D-day and a german div has the VoV activated.Means:
-German Div not retreating->gets destroyed, but at a slow rate
(could take 1-4 days, depending on size)
-American Div reaching the provice only if German is totally annihilated
OR
conquering the province but halted to reorg for as long the German div still alive
(1-4 days, depending on size)

Should be implemented carefully though so that a German player could not really delay a Bagration-sized Soviet offensive using VoV for a few Militias against some dozen armored/mot/mech corps!

Any other suggestions?

 

[Blecky]

While the org thing could be one way to prevent offensive exploit of VoV, it's more to go for the idea that you can put up more fierce resistance and determined defence, but it will exhaust itself faster despite the fact it keeps fighting on and on even when it's completely disorganized -> more casualties in the long run.

I don´t think that morale would automatically drop due to VoV. During the first two winter seasons at the eastern front the Germans had to stay in their pockets and defend there and then. But they were sure to be relieved even after a longer period of time. Of course this didn´t always work out as Stalingrad proved. I´d rather go for the increased supply consumption as it would be a gamble to use while being encircled.

Another option could be that units using VoV are treated like garrisons which means they are eliminated after being defeated.

 

[naq29]

I think it's better if there is no "Valhalla or victory" anymore. Fights to the last man occurred extremely rarely in history, and they happened only when the unit was encircled.

 

[Blecky]

I think it's better if there is no "Valhalla or victory" anymore. Fights to the last man occurred extremely rarely in history, and they happened only when the unit was encircled.

Then you might use it as a battle event in cases of encirclement, depending on doctrines, leader trait ("defense" makes it more likely to occur), etc.