Vae Victis - Development Diary VI

[unmerged(109735)]

I don't see anything implying that the council in a monarchy will in any way check the king's ability to do anything (...)

Had I thought that this was clearly implied, I wouldn't have written "I'm worried that the councils in Vae Victis might grossly misrepresent Hellenistic monarchies", I would have written "they do grossly misrepresent Hellenistic monarchies". From what I've read I've merely inferred the possibility, and this possibility is worrying. Exactly like I've written.

 

[unmerged(61634)]

The effort put into making the gameplay more varied is laudable, but I am nonetheless worried about this council-thing.

Hellenistic monarchies were absolute monarchies, even more so than that of Louis XIV. Hellenestic political thought, as extant in surviving works of philosophers and statemen of the age, does explicitly recognize the Hellenistic king as being above and beyond law - it recognizes that there is nothig he is not allowed to do.

Which is of course not to say that councilmen did never plot against kings - they did do so no less than councilmen did at all times. It's just that the councils had no legal power vis a vis the king whatsoever and were certainly no check on the monarchs' power. I'm worried that the councils in Vae Victis might grossly misrepresent Hellenistic monarchies, to the point of distorting them well beyond recognition.

That's not true; what about at Sparta, for example? The Kings there are definitely not regarded as being above and beyond the law. Athens' King was nearly completely powerless. Do you have a primary Hellenic source stating that Hellenic Kings are above and beyond the law? VV is somewhat outside of my time-period (5th 4th BC), but still...

EDIT: Wait, you seem to be thinking of how Hellenic philosophers described a pure, monarchical form of government, and then saying that Hellenic monarchies were like that in Practice.

I have a problem with that, because the reality seldom lived up to the strict definition. Mixed constitutions that bowed to the king, etc. Having a government that exerts some authority alongside the king is not at all ahistorical, but having all the states that have kings be all-powerful despots most certainly is.

 

[Elias Tarfarius]

EDIT: Wait, you seem to be thinking of how Hellenic philosophers described a pure, monarchical form of government, and then saying that Hellenic monarchies were like that in Practice.

I have a problem with that, because the reality seldom lived up to the strict definition. Mixed constitutions that bowed to the king, etc. Having a government that exerts some authority alongside the king is not at all ahistorical, but having all the states that have kings be all-powerful despots most certainly is.

This was different post-Alexander, as the Successors followed his and the Persian Shahs example, becoming Oriental despots to control their huge kingdoms full of semi-hostile natives (as oppose to fellow Hellenes as the pre-Alexanderian kings had ruled).

 

[Nyrael]

If you forgot, there are laws and national decisions that can be declared. It is my guess that they take care that kingdoms like Sparta and Athens look different, but allow (if certain conditions are met) for a individual or a council to change the way the monarchy works.

If it is not in, it can (probably) easily be modded now that wee have laws, decisions and titles. So I don't see a problem here. Leave the finishing touched to modders (and maybe patches and later expansions) and congratulate PI for what they gave us because VV certanly did give us many cool new features..

 

[unmerged(61634)]

This was different post-Alexander, as the Successors followed his and the Persian Shahs example, becoming Oriental despots to control their huge kingdoms full of semi-hostile natives (as oppose to fellow Hellenes as the pre-Alexanderian kings had ruled).

Ohh, okay, sorry then. My knowledge drops off really badly after Xenophon's Hellenica. My knowledge of the Diodochi is limited to Plutarch, who doesn't really describe government structure or theory. Are there any late 4th century, 3rd century writers who deal with post-Alexander government? I really don't want to have to touch a Latin text, though.

EDIT: But still, the point stands for many Hellenic kings in Greece. The Cleomenean War takes place during VV, but even though Cleomenes is a Hellenic King, he is absolutely nothing like an Eastern despot.

 

[Scipio Aemilius]

Are there any late 4th century, 3rd century writers who deal with post-Alexander government? I really don't want to have to touch a Latin text, though.

Polybius, the greatest firsthand source of the era.

 

[Imperium Dei]

Nice, I've been waiting for more details on monarchies rather than those crazy Romans and their silly 'Republic' I'm certainly looking forward to getting this.

 

[unmerged(61634)]

Polybius, the greatest firsthand source of the era.

Thanks.

Does anybody know of a good edition and where to order it? I can't find them on Amazon (unless I want Loeb to bankrupt me).

 

[Terran Noble]

Thanks.

Does anybody know of a good edition and where to order it? I can't find them on Amazon (unless I want Loeb to bankrupt me).

I think it is download only and the only place you can get it at gamersgate.

 

[Tai-Pan]

I bought a book of primary sources for my Hellenistic Age class last year. ALOT of it is parts of Polybius' works, although I havent looked at it in along time. It isn't his full works or anything like that.The book is titled,
"The Hellenistic World from Alexander to the Roman Conquest" By Michel Austin 2nd ed. Cambridge University Press. THis may not be even close to what your looking for but it sprung to mind while reading your posts.

Most Hellenistic monarchies were ruled by those who could seize control. I think legitimacy was for whoever could hold control and keep it... wow guess I didn't learn as much as i thought...

 

[OutsiderSubtype]

So I understand the difference between agnatic and cognatic succession, but what is Egyptian succession law in this context? First-born of either gender inherits and is encouraged to marry a sibling?

 

[Scipio Aemilius]

Thanks.

Does anybody know of a good edition and where to order it? I can't find them on Amazon (unless I want Loeb to bankrupt me).

Edition?
Bilingual: Loeb (English Greek), Presses Universitaires de France (Budé) (French Greek)
Historical and Translation Notes: Campbridge Greek and Latin Texts
Plain Greek: Oxford Classical Text, there's also a german edition I can't remember!
Or you might get it on the "Thesaurus Linguae Graecae" CD. Or a similar tool.

I bought a book of primary sources for my Hellenistic Age class last year. ALOT of it is parts of Polybius' works, although I havent looked at it in along time.

Most Hellenistic monarchies were ruled by those who could seize control. I think legitimacy was for whoever could hold control and keep it... wow guess I didn't learn as much as i thought...

There's a good reason why Polybius is quoted from the begining to the end of the book, he's the single reason why we know anything about that era! He's the only reliable historian of the period, and he lived during that time too!

 

[unmerged(109735)]

Do you have a primary Hellenic source stating that Hellenic Kings are above and beyond the law?

Absolutely. There are the writings of Zenon, personal advisor and councillor to the Macedon king Antigonos Gonatas, and those of Zenon's successor Persaios, and of Kleanthes and Sphairos. All the extant fragments of their various writings are gathered and edited in the scientifically annotated edition of Jacoby, Fragmenta Historicorum Graecorum, and there are abridged quotes of their opinions with the antique writer Diogenes Laertios, Book 7, Chapters 7, 8, 10 and 178. Multiple opinions to the same end, black on white, and recognized unanimously by the scientific community.

If you consider this too unapproachable you might try the modern standard work on Hellenistic states:

Peter Green. From Alexander to Actium. The Historical Evolution of the Hellenistic Age. Berkley 1990. Univeristy of California Press.

In addition to Green's own astute analysis you'll find many thousands of pages on Hellenistic political theory in the biography of this magnum opus.

 

[unmerged(61634)]

Absolutely. There are the writings of Zenon, personal advisor and councillor to the Macedon king Antigonos Gonatas, and those of Zenon's successor Persaios, and of Kleanthes and Sphairos. All the extant fragments of their various writings are gathered and edited in the scientifically annotated edition of Jacoby, Fragmenta Historicorum Graecorum, and there are abridged quotes of their opinions with the antique writer Diogenes Laertios, Book 7, Chapters 7, 8, 10 and 178. Multiple opinions to the same end, black on white, and recognized unanimously by the scientific community.

If you consider this too unapproachable you might try the modern standard work on Hellenistic states:

Peter Green. From Alexander to Actium. The Historical Evolution of the Hellenistic Age. Berkley 1990. Univeristy of California Press.

In addition to Green's own astute analysis you'll find many thousands of pages on Hellenistic political theory in the biography of this magnum opus.

Thanks; when I read your post I was thinking of the original Hellenic world, rather than the conquered people. My mistake.

I don't doubt that plenty of Easterners thought that kings were absolute and above the law, but if we're talking about Hellenes thinking that way, the case is infinitely weaker.

 

[unmerged(92421)]

I think it is download only and the only place you can get it is at gamersgate.

Welcome to post without reading.

 

[unmerged(109735)]

Thanks; when I read your post I was thinking of the original Hellenic world, rather than the conquered people. My mistake.

I don't doubt that plenty of Easterners thought that kings were absolute and above the law, but if we're talking about Hellenes thinking that way, the case is infinitely weaker.

No, no, I’m actuall referring to Hellenestic-age Greeks granting their kings an absolute status. You are absolutely right about Classical Greeks of the era of the Persian Wars, but there was a strong shift in public opinion following the rule of Alexander. Among others, one readily apparent indicator of this new mindset is the deification of living monarchs, whereas Classical Greeks did not even regards dead monarchs as gods.

You do not only find this deification in Egypt and Persia – ironically, this trend does not even start there, but in Athens, of all places. When Antigonos Monophthalmos and his son Demetrios Poliorketes freed Athens in 307 BC, the people of Athen decreed that these two rulers be hitherto venerated as theoi soteres, as ‘delivering gods’. That’s the very first instance of veneration of living rulers by Greeks, and it set off a landslide; within a few short decades practically all Greek rulers were accounted divine status. And even though very few people did actually believe in their heart of hearts in the divinity of their kings, the development is nonetheless highly illustrative of the exalted position the Hellenistic kings held in the minds of the people – a position and well above and beyond the law.

 

[Arilou]

The effort put into making the gameplay more varied is laudable, but I am nonetheless worried about this council-thing.

Hellenistic monarchies were absolute monarchies, even more so than that of Louis XIV. Hellenestic political thought, as extant in surviving works of philosophers and statemen of the age, does explicitly recognize the Hellenistic king as being above and beyond law - it recognizes that there is nothig he is not allowed to do.

Which is of course not to say that councilmen did never plot against kings - they did do so no less than councilmen did at all times. It's just that the councils had no legal power vis a vis the king whatsoever and were certainly no check on the monarchs' power. I'm worried that the councils in Vae Victis might grossly misrepresent Hellenistic monarchies, to the point of distorting them well beyond recognition.

Mind, absolutism isn't neccessarily reflected in practice. To some degree it seems to be the opposite. Louis XIV was far from as absolute as he tried to present himself, I suspect the same is true for the hellenistic monarchs.

 

[unmerged(109735)]

Mind, absolutism isn't neccessarily reflected in practice. To some degree it seems to be the opposite. Louis XIV was far from as absolute as he tried to present himself, I suspect the same is true for the hellenistic monarchs.

On what grounds do you suspect so? Modern disquisitions on Hellenistic kingship don't share your suspicions but have reached the conclusion that they were despotic regimes with the monarchs holding absolute power and exerting it.

But I suspect this discussion may have gotten way out of hand. My original comment, quoted by you, was aimed at the developers and a direct reply to the development diary, I didn't intend to start a detailed historical argument.

 

[Arilou]

On what grounds do you suspect so? Modern disquisitions on Hellenistic kingship don't share your suspicions but have reached the conclusion that they were despotic regimes with the monarchs holding absolute power and exerting it.

Mainly on the grounds of the general instability of many of the regimes. You couldn't shake a stick at 'em without finding a brother-killer or revolting general somewhere.

This implies that these had some kind of ability to marshall support. Presumably from elites of various kinds.

Whether or not their power was "beyond the law" in *technical* terms isn't really relevant: The point with Louis XIV was actually precisely the opposite: What the law said, and what he could actually do in practice are two entirely different things.

 

[SimuLord]

I should probably get ready to call my bank and let them know that the transaction on the 19th does not mean someone stole my card and ran off to Sweden with it---when I first bought EU:R with my card the bank froze it because they thought exactly that scenario had occurred and it took me a good ten minutes to explain to the customer service rep that yes, the transaction was processed in Stockholm and no, I wasn't actually in Stockholm because of this wonderful invention called the Internet...damn old ladies working in call centres! :rofl: