V2 Beta AAR : France 1836 - A Learning The Game AAR discussion thread

[KonradRichtmark]

Again though, you need to have some sort of base data to begin with, and a 1399 startdate is simply not going to give you the kind of demographic data you would need to have any confidence in the numbers you do enter for those provinces, not just in RoTW but for large parts of Western and Central Europe as well, to be able to include the rural countryside along with cities.

Sometimes you simply have to accept the limitations that data contain when you make your models.

But would those population figures have to be historically correct?

What matters, from a gamist perspective, is that there is some number, and that that number changes dynamically over time, with consequences for income, manpower, etc. Would it really ruin the game if that number didn't start at something historically correct?

Historical demography is an established science, and while its results are calculated estimates, the game wouldn't need any higher accuracy than, say, no value being off by more than a factor of 2 or so.

Then the game could actually model the consequences of things like depopulation of territories through war, as happened to Germany during the 30 years war.

 

[telesien]

Hello everyone!

In Algeria, Jingoism (as a "dominant issue") has a percentage higher than the percentage of French in this province. What does that mean? Did a lot of the conquered people become pro-french patriots?

Jingoism doesn't mean being patriotic, but just supporting large army. I agree that rebelious POPs should be strategically voting for pacifist parties in order to reduce military presence, but implementing strategic voting seems too much.

Also does it show real issues of all or only voters? Because this could just mean that new french immigrants are scared of native rebels and so want big army.

 

[Verenti]

Isn't Saint Pierre & Michelon a bit small to be included? Isn't that a bit like giving the Channel Islands their own province / state?

 

[DesertSnow]

Jingoism doesn't mean being patriotic, but just supporting large army. I agree that rebelious POPs should be strategically voting for pacifist parties in order to reduce military presence, but implementing strategic voting seems too much.

Also does it show real issues of all or only voters? Because this could just mean that new french immigrants are scared of native rebels and so want big army.

I think that your points make sense.

 

[Alerias]

Isn't Saint Pierre & Michelon a bit small to be included? Isn't that a bit like giving the Channel Islands their own province / state?

Strategic value sometimes dwarf size here I think.

These islands COULD have been alot more important than they have been had they been used as bases or some such.

 

[Snaake]

Strategic value sometimes dwarf size here I think.

These islands COULD have been alot more important than they have been had they been used as bases or some such.

Definitely. In CLIO, which the Wicky maps is based off, eg. Helgoland off the Danish/German coasts. Even today it's only 1.7 sq.km (of which only the larger, 1 sq. km island is inhabited), and 1650 people (that's 412 POPs for ya).

However, it was seized by the British in 1807, ceded from Denmark to the UK in 1814, and was granted to Germany in 1890. Hm, this means they'll probably be part of a German (Hanoverian) state, but start as part of the UK In imperial Germany it was an important naval base and saw naval battles in 1918 and in WWII.

 

[PrawnStar]

By that logic wouldn't they be Indian colonies? What stops non-primary culture people from moving to your colonies instead of primary. Take Britian, if India is worse off the Britian, and has more people, what stops them from emigrating in droves?

This happened in RL, it's why there are relatively large numbers of people of Indian ancestory in places as diverse as South Africa, Fiji and Guyana.

 

[Fire_Unionist]

This happened in RL, it's why there are relatively large numbers of people of Indian ancestory in places as diverse as South Africa, Fiji and Guyana.

But why wouldn't their be vast majorities of them everywhere?

 

[Capt. Kiwi]

This happened in RL, it's why there are relatively large numbers of people of Indian ancestory in places as diverse as South Africa, Fiji and Guyana.

In some places, but not all. I'm not really sure if there's a simple way to model immigration, since there are so many factors. Maybe linking the origin and destination climates? That might encourage the British, Scandinavian, Dalmatian etc settlers who came to NZ to do so, and similarly work for other places. But then you're not going to get enough mad dogs and Englishmen in the tropics.

I don't envy whoever is responsible for getting immigration to work.

 

[Barón Rojo]

But that emigration was more or less sponsored, no? Cheap labor was needed in those newly established colonies and workers from India, China... were brought to work there.

 

[Snaake]

In some places, but not all. I'm not really sure if there's a simple way to model immigration, since there are so many factors. Maybe linking the origin and destination climates? That might encourage the British, Scandinavian, Dalmatian etc settlers who came to NZ to do so, and similarly work for other places. But then you're not going to get enough mad dogs and Englishmen in the tropics.

I don't envy whoever is responsible for getting immigration to work.

Finally someone agrees with me

I've suggested linking source/target climate and/or terrain a few times now. The most common destinations for people moving from Europe often matched the target areas. The northern, cooler forests were settled mostly by Northern Europeans, for example.

 

[Biges]

Thanks for another update, OHGamer!

Maybe it could be useful to either make some blank posts so the AAR would continue on new page or make AAR part 2. It is to not to tax the image hosting service too much and also the page gets quite large and loads slowly now.

 

[telesien]

Thanks for another update, OHGamer!

Maybe it could be useful to either make some blank posts so the AAR would continue on new page or make AAR part 2. It is to not to tax the image hosting service too much and also the page gets quite large and loads slowly now.

I usually stop loading the page ASAP and than open just new posts

 

[OHgamer]

Isn't Saint Pierre & Michelon a bit small to be included? Isn't that a bit like giving the Channel Islands their own province / state?

the Channel Islands are their own province, as are places such as South Georgia, Montserrat, the Cocos Islands and Norfolk Island, if Paradox retained the province setup that Clio for V1 had. One of the nice things about the V2 POP system is that the minimum POP size that can be listed is much lower than the 1000 POPs that the V1 pop files required.

 

[Ksim3000]

Yes, although given the figures, it looks like they'll have to compete for immigrants with Sierra Leone, India and Malta...

By that logic wouldn't they be Indian colonies? What stops non-primary culture people from moving to your colonies instead of primary. Take Britian, if India is worse off the Britian, and has more people, what stops them from emigrating in droves?

That is a good question. Perhaps limited citizenship/residence affects this? Also low cash reserves for native populations in those countries could affect perhaps migration.....

Either way, I wouldn't want to see droves of Indians or what have you emigrating to colonies. It was more a European affair back then (although despite this, Britain did encourage Indian migration into its African colonies back in the day....)

The BNP, presumably

Actually, that isn't unrealistic. There are Far-Right Parties modelled into the game engine. Perhaps that could stem migration?

Either way, as long as I can historically colonise the British colonies as they were, I will be a happy Ksim.

 

[Niptium]

the Channel Islands are their own province, as are places such as South Georgia, Montserrat, the Cocos Islands and Norfolk Island, if Paradox retained the province setup that Clio for V1 had. One of the nice things about the V2 POP system is that the minimum POP size that can be listed is much lower than the 1000 POPs that the V1 pop files required.

I would say that the number of households on St-Pierre et Miquelon is a little bit high (if the rule of 4 is to be applied to get to the real population). Nowadays, the current pop. of St-Pierre et Miquelon is 6 100...

So yeah, what about that accepted culture (French Canadian) and the possibility of Québec as a revolter?

 

[PrawnStar]

But why wouldn't their be vast majorities of them everywhere?

Most too poor to travel? The Indian community overseas contains a lot of professionals and commercial workers rather than just labourers. For example Gandhi was a lawyer in South Africa

In some places, but not all. I'm not really sure if there's a simple way to model immigration, since there are so many factors. Maybe linking the origin and destination climates? That might encourage the British, Scandinavian, Dalmatian etc settlers who came to NZ to do so, and similarly work for other places. But then you're not going to get enough mad dogs and Englishmen in the tropics.

I don't envy whoever is responsible for getting immigration to work.

Doesn't really work for Oz though - otherwise Hobart would be the capital

But that emigration was more or less sponsored, no? Cheap labor was needed in those newly established colonies and workers from India, China... were brought to work there.

True to a large extent - plantation workers after slavery was abolished - this is a major explanation in the South Pacific and Caribbean but much Gujerati emigration follows the same drivers as Lebanese emigration - i.e. the chance to get rich through business in markets western europeans may not personally chose.

I suppose the point is the British Empire certainly saw migration from one colonial area to another so having this in game is reasonable.

 

[OHgamer]

I would say that the number of households on St-Pierre et Miquelon is a little bit high (if the rule of 4 is to be applied to get to the real population). Nowadays, the current pop. of St-Pierre et Miquelon is 6 100...

So yeah, what about that accepted culture (French Canadian) and the possibility of Québec as a revolter?

There has been immigration to SPM from France, hence the larger number than historical as shown.

Not sure off the top of my head what the RGO capacity is for the province, but that is something i'm pretty sure the modding community could tweak further if it was felt the potential max population was too high.

I believe Quebec is a revolter, not sure about the Franco-Canadian accepted culture.

 

[Fire_Unionist]

Is there any indication that money is needed to emigrate in the game?

 

[Niptium]

There has been immigration to SPM from France, hence the larger number than historical as shown.

Not sure off the top of my head what the RGO capacity is for the province, but that is something i'm pretty sure the modding community could tweak further if it was felt the potential max population was too high.

I believe Quebec is a revolter, not sure about the Franco-Canadian accepted culture.

Well I don't know either, but I might have badly explained myself as it was more of a question than a remark. I meant you had it one of your screenshot : French-Canadian was under French culture. I was wondering what exactly was that? (Altough it would make sense that French-Canadian be accepted as culture) Thank you for the answers.